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Topic: Speeding drummer |
Keith Hilton
From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
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Posted 26 Apr 2021 9:05 am |
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Last Friday at the Dance the drummer had a terrible speeding problem. When speeding comes up, some blame the drummer, and others blame the bass player. It is hard to tell who is at fault, especially when the bass player is playing a walking 4/4 bass pattern.
Not really concerned who's fault it is, would just like some kind of solution. I know click track devices are made for drummers. Some of the click track devices have ear pieces for the drummer, and some have red blinking lights.
Just wondering what other devices are available to keep the rhythm section from speeding or dragging? Talking about the problem with a drummer, or bass player, does not seem to help. Need some type of device that keeps the rhythm section at the same tempo. |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 26 Apr 2021 9:42 am
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The drummer is the timekeeper and it's his job to keep steady time, just as a vocalist's job is to sing on pitch.
Two alternatives present themselves:
1) Require your drummer to buy and use a click track generator.
2) Recruit a drummer who can keep steady time.
Since drummers tend to object to click tracks, alternative #2 should perhaps be pursued alongside alternative #1. |
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Rick Barnhart
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2021 10:06 am Re: Speeding drummer
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| Keith Hilton wrote: |
| Talking about the problem with a drummer, or bass player, does not seem to help. Need some type of device that keeps the rhythm section at the same tempo. |
If they won’t listen to constructive advice, they won’t be receptive to an electronic timing device. If it’s intolerable for you...find someone else to fill their job(s)
_________________
Clinesmith consoles D-8/6 5 pedal, D-8 3 pedal & A25 Frypan, Pettingill Teardrop, & P8 Deluxe. |
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Jim Fogarty
From:
Phila, Pa, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2021 11:43 am
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Play a dance with a drummer who drags, and I promise you'll never complain about a rushing drummer again!!  |
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Dave Campbell
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 26 Apr 2021 2:17 pm
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i disagree that timekeeping is solely the domain of the drummer. it's everybody's job.
rehearsal is the best place to address the problem. if you don't rehearse, forget about fixing it; it will not happen from talking alone, and relying on a drummer who has a hard time staying in tempo to follow a click is asking for a disaster.
during a rehearsal you'll need to find the core of your rhythm section (maybe it includes bass, keys and acoustic guitar) and listen to them play through a tune and try to identify where things are speeding up. lots of drummers speed up on the chorus, or when a soloist plays aggressively or too on top of the beat. maybe the bass player is pushing the drummer too hard. once you find the problem, work it until the issue is resolved; the bass player might adjust their walk, the soloist might have to watch their own tempo, or the drummer might have to remember to breathe when the band hits that sweet chorus.
i will say that a drummer who can't play in time is much like a guitar player that plays too loud; the drummer doesn't think he plays too fast, so he can't fix the problem he doesn't think he has. like leading a horse to water, you might be able to gently bring him around to the idea that there's a problem, but getting him to work on it is likely not easy.
again, as with a too loud guitar player, you're likely either going to have to live with it or move on. |
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Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2021 2:46 pm
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“What time does the band play?â€
“Oh...about half a beat behind the drummer.â€
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 26 Apr 2021 3:24 pm
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It's particularly important when playing for dancing that not only the speed but the feel is correct. If the drummer cannot sense that the rest of the band is uncomfortable with his efforts then he is not musical enough to carry out his role.
Easy to say, harder to do but his condition is incurable and he should find a less demanding job.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2021 4:15 pm
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Agree with Ian about the feel.
I’m not crazy about click tracks on stage for drummers. But they should be practicing with one.
I personally don’t think a 3-4 bpm variance over the course of a 3 or 4 minute song is terrible thing, especially if its a tempo increase rather than decrease. I think that happens a lot, because we’re humans, not machines.
But, a noticeably inappropriate deviation can happen for a variety of reasons, like somebody feels the song differently, or doesn’t know the song, is indifferent and bored with it, or doesn’t like it, or simply is unable to keep reasonable time.
You could do the science and have somebody at rehearsal keep their hand on a metronome and try to keep time while the band is playing. Also determine if it happens every song, just some songs, or just certain places in some songs. If everyone agrees there is a problem, then the question is can it be solved with the current personnel. |
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Michael Sawyer
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2021 5:16 pm
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Our band records our weekly practices and every show.
It has made us all better musicians.
Record it,play it back for him.
If he can't hear it and recognize it,you're wasting your time. |
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Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
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Posted 26 Apr 2021 7:02 pm
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See if your drummer would be open to using a Beat Bug. I've known a few drummers who have used them with good results. Some say it keeps them honest. Here is some info about them.
http://beatbug.biz/beat_bug.htm |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 26 Apr 2021 7:24 pm
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Most of the time it's a losing battle. Drugs and alcohol is always a good culprit. Like the old saying, drink and drug all you want as long as it doesn't affect my playing. Lack of sleep or stress is a possibility. If he's all straight and doesn't hear it, time for a switch.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Jon Voth
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2021 8:00 pm
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My day job is with a brass quintet. We sometimes play crazy hard intricate music where we know there are places where we push and pull.
We use a bluetooth speaker, A Dewalt brand speaker that is used for folks to play music on a job site. Anyone's phone with a metronome app can hook to it, and if you use something like that it should be loud enough to cut through and everyone hears it. It might be a couple hundred bucks or so, but look around, or perhaps some way to put it through a PA system you are already using.
It is so very invaluable and you might swear it is speeding or slowing on you but then -oh yeah, it's me!
Everyone is trainable, our experience is that the more we practice with this, the more it becomes natural to play in time. It is human nature to for example play fast when excited and confronted with a challenging passage, getting flustered, etc. Hey consider something like that and good luck! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Apr 2021 12:52 am
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To me, metronomes are useful only for setting or identifying a tempo, not for playing along with. If you have to concentrate on synchronising with a clicking sound, what brain have you got left for the music?
If you don't have an accurate internal clock, find a different pursuit or you'll drive others crazy.
Having said all that, I also played in a brass group for many years where the rhythmic weak link was the French horn; but we carried him because he was otherwise a sensational player!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Sandy Inglis
From:
Christchurch New Zealand
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Posted 27 Apr 2021 3:17 am
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Many years ago I was in a band with questionable drummer. I discovered that if I sped up (slowly) my strumming the drummer followed and if I slowed my strumming he did too! I suddenly realized that I (as the singer and Rhythm Guitarist) was setting the speed.
I then left the band as I seemed to be carrying the load of time-Keeper as well as front man.
The drummer eventually gave up drumming and played guitar but never amounted to much.
My Current band has a fantastic drummer/Bass guitar combo and we have blossomed in that the guitarist and I can work around the beat knowing it is solid!
The band is so good now we are re-introducing my Pedal Steel to expand the versatility. we had let it slide due to timing issues with our previous Bass Player.
_________________
01'Zumsteel D10 9+9; Sho Bud D10 SuperPro; 6 String Lap Steel (Homemade); Peavey Nashville 1000; Fender Deluxe 85;
1968 Gibson SG; Taylor 710 CE; Encore Tele Copy; Peterson Tuner; HIWATT T40 C 40W/20W Combo |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 27 Apr 2021 5:19 am
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We use a click track in the studio and it seems to keep everyone together. Very noticeable if the drummer moves a little. The engineer can move any instrument on computer if it's off, rather than dubbing.
I worked in a trio for a while and a programmed electronic drum set. Worked fine.
I like a drummer to drive, but not speed. It works great with 4/4. It's fun to play in that groove. I think I know where Keith is coming from with 4/4. Add a guitar rhythm chunking that up beat and it's well rounded. Easy to rush if a drummer isn't familiar with it.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2021 9:54 am
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He's rushing?
I'm not one to advocate anyone using drugs or alcohol to solve a problem... but I have seen drummers take it upon themselves to have a beer to calm stage-fright and suddenly relax into the pocket. Or go too far and relax into a hell-scape of dragging, which is worse.
Maybe make him a big ol' turkey sandwich, dripping with tryptophan? Guage the proportions right and you can nail that Goldilocks sweet-spot. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 28 Apr 2021 10:59 am
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Not sure it can be solved by medication or diet
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 28 Apr 2021 11:27 am
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If turkey meat works you can monitor how much turkey it takes to put him into the groove and take the correct portion with you to the band job. Turkey timing. Monitor the correct timing with coffee and turkey.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Don R Brown
From:
Rochester, New York, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2021 11:36 am
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| Dennis Detweiler wrote: |
| If turkey meat works you can monitor how much turkey it takes to put him into the groove and take the correct portion with you to the band job. Turkey timing. Monitor the correct timing with coffee and turkey. |
So offer the drummer a drumstick?
_________________
Many play better than I do. Nobody has more fun. |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2021 4:08 pm
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I'd rather them"take liberties"with the tempo than play too loud...
SH |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 28 Apr 2021 5:10 pm
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A drummer that can play soft or loud without losing their touch is rare around here. I only knew two locally.
I worked with one that used the largest sticks and a heavy hand. He had to move on after a month. Finding one flexible enough to use brushes or sticks is even more rare.
Rushing or dragging drives me normal.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 28 Apr 2021 6:45 pm
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Tempos need to breathe... but rush & drag...nope...no way.
What really irks me is when a drummer doesn't have any dynamic instincts.
Not knowing when to go to cross stick, for example. That's my pet peeve... |
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Steve Allison
From:
Eatonton,Ga. U.S.A.
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Posted 28 Apr 2021 7:57 pm
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| I'm with Steve Hinson on this one. Most drummers in my neck of the woods don't really listen to classic country music. Watch it when you go through your set list. Poor timing and uncertain about when to rim shot or not. Now play the Lynyrd Skynrd song and you have the hottest drummer around and its not just drummers! Some musicians will tell you they can play it but are only there to fake through it and get their $100. Our bandleader and myself talk about this on a regular basis. He asked me how to make it better and I said before you hire or audition a new musician, ask him can you go to his house and go through some songs. Look at his CD collection or however he listens to music. If its mainly blues and rock or rap then he probably never will make a classic country musician. I can pick the great drummers. They have a couple of drums and BRUSHES! Drummers set the stage volume. Everyone wants more monitor and turns there amp up until it all sounds like a chinsaw. Loud music has killed just as many gigs as covid! |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 28 Apr 2021 9:10 pm
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I particularly hate drummers that drag &/or play behind the beat on uptempo songs. It just sucks the life out of songs.
I also hate drummers that have huge drum kits and feel compelled to play every drum and every cymbal on every song. Most of the drummers I see on YouTube that impress me have small to very small kits. A snare, a kick, a high-hat and a ride cymbal should be enough for most songs. OK, maybe one tom, BUT no more.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 29 Apr 2021 12:56 am
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| Skip Edwards wrote: |
| Tempos need to breathe... |
Well said. That's why all the modern pop stuff that's made on a computer with samples sounds so sterile, and why playing to a click track is so unnatural.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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