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Topic: B pedal has "side effects" -- detunes 1st and 2nd strings |
Peter Briggs
From:
Chicago IL
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Posted 19 Apr 2021 4:32 pm |
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Lately I have been encountering a frustrating issue with my MSA Classic S-10 where depressing my B pedal appears to have "side effects" that slightly detune the 1st and 2nd strings. The effect is most noticeable on the 1st string, to the point where I can't really play the 1st string in a pedals-down position.
I have a pretty standard setup. My B pedal raises my 6th and 3rd strings a half-step. My RKL lever raises the 1st string a whole tone, raises the 2nd string a half tone, and lowers my 6th string a half tone.
I've taken a look under the hood, and although I have not done any maintenance on my steel before I've made some observations. Apologies if my terminology is outdated or incorrect; I'm just pulling terms from diagrams in the Winnie Winston book.
As far as I can tell, my problem is that when I depress the B pedal, the B-pedal pull rod for the 6th string is somehow turning the cross rod for the RKL lever. I don't know how this is happening -- that B pedal pull rod is not attached to the bell crank for the RKL cross rod. Now, this only happens when I've appropriately tuned my 6th string B pedal tuner. If I detune that tuner all the way (such that the B pedal no longer raises the 6th string) there are no side effects on the 1st or 2nd strings.
Any help or insight with this would be greatly appreciated! This is my first time reaching out for help on this group -- I hope I've been clear in my description of the problem, and I also have my fingers crossed that there's a quick fix (though nothing in life is ever so easy 😉). I would normally just take this in for maintenance, but my local steel repair guys (Bill and Tim Rudolph at Williams Guitars here in Minnesota) are booked up through the summer.
Please let me know if photos or videos would help in diagnosing this, or if my description is confusing. Thanks all! |
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Mike Selecky
From:
BrookPark, Ohio
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Posted 19 Apr 2021 5:59 pm
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| Maybe the 6th string's pull rod is binding somehow on another rod or bellcrank? Did you check the changer for a broken string end that may be jamming up the fingers? |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2021 9:10 pm
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First thing Check for ball end of a broken string caught in the changer.
Does the guitar have a knee lever that takes the 1st string to G Sharp and the 2nd string to E, Something may be dragging on that cross rod or bell crank.
Lay on your back with a good Light and have someone step on the B pedal. Start at the changer fingers, And work your way back to the pedal. The B pull rods are working through all the other rods going to the changer.
Why I am suggesting looking under the guitar sitting up is,
When you turn the guitar over on a cradle the weight of long rods will move by gravity and not show true operating position. Check where the B pedal rods go through any bell cranks from changer to B pedal Cross rod.
I have a MSA S10 I played for about 19 years. Then I went S 12 Universal.
Good Luck finding the problem and a cure. Happy Steelin. |
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Don Christy
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Posted 20 Apr 2021 1:00 am
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My first thought is you have 3 different changes on one cross shaft (1-2-6). My next thought is you have a 6 string raise on the changer with the B pedal and a 6th string lower on the RNL. Two separate rods going to number 6 changer finger.
My guess would be to check the springs on the changer to see if all the fingers are returning to their stops.
The lower 6th string should have more tension on that spring since it is lowering the string and not raising it.
If you have the adjustment screws on the back plate to adjust the spring tension ...start adjusting the 6th string spring tension by just turning the screw in half turns.
Next ..after doing this check to see if it detunes. If it still detunes try another half turn on the screw.
I have had similar detune problems and it was because the spring tension was not returning the fingers to their stop locations.
So in your case when you step on the B pedal and it raises the 6th string..my guess is the 6th string lower spring tension needs adjustment to return the finger to its stop so it wont detune strings 1 and
2.
Something is going on with your changer finger on the 6th raise and 6th lower.
Make sure you check the spring tension on fingers 1 & 2 because they are on the same cross shaft with the 6th lower. It could be 1 & 2 strings might need a little spring tension adjustment to.
If after checking and trying this...and it dont work..it might be your changer needs a good cleaning..it might be dragging or binding up on certain fingers..or broken wire end stuck in changer too.
One other thing you need to try and that is to hook up your Peterson tuner if you have one and turn it on. Now step down on the B pedal and see how much the tuning drops. This is the cabinet drop on a steel. If the drop is a lot that could be part of the problem to.
You can check cabinet drop on all the pedals and see which ones drop more or less.
If your cross shaft is moving on RNL while you depressed the B pedal...then its a spring tension issue or a changer finger issue on number 6 changer finger.
Last edited by Don Christy on 20 Apr 2021 6:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 20 Apr 2021 3:57 am
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You deserve an award 🆠for the term "side effects". I've never heard that before and think it's great. It will become part of my PSG vocabulary.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Peter Briggs
From:
Chicago IL
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Posted 21 Apr 2021 7:10 pm
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I appreciate all the replies fellas! This evening I removed the 6th string, and when that didn't fix the issue I flipped the guitar over and took a deep look at the underbelly.
I found that the problem was entirely dependent on the tension of my 6th string B pedal tuner. When I laid off the tension there, the RKL cross shaft stopped moving. In the course of my investigation, I tried testing all the related pedal/lever tuners at the endplate and when I was tuning one of them (forget which) I heard a little "pop" and voila -- the problem was completely solved! Although I shook the guitar and nothing came out I wonder whether there might have been something stuck in the tuner mechanism as some of you suggested.
Anyways, I've slapped a new 6th string on there and tuned up the guitar and appear to be home free. Thanks again for all who weighed in on this! |
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Don Christy
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Posted 22 Apr 2021 12:20 am
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Peter,if I were a teacher..which Im not...I would give you an A+. Great job in finding the problem!
Take care now! |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2021 6:55 pm
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Speaking of the 6th string. Was the string wound or plain. If you switch from plain to wound it takes a little more movement to reach the note and can cause the problem.
A star for finding the problem. |
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