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Topic: Newbie Question on Left Heel Position |
Darryl Coyne
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 10 Apr 2021 6:40 pm |
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Hello All and thanks in advance for any help you can give.
I've been at it about a year and up until now have been working with the "Scotty" Deluxe book and Youtube. That book concentrates mainly on the A + B pedals. That, along with the advice from a Joe Wright column to position the left heel in line with the B pedal was going very well until I got the "Winnie" book and found out what the C pedal is for. B + C was causing me to turn my foot in too much. Now I find that the best heel position to comfortably reach all pedals seems to be in line with C but that makes A a stretch. so, the question is: Is left heel movement normal when playing or do most players plant in one spot? Coming from 6 string guitar, I'm fascinated with just how much Wild West there still is in the PSG world and I know ultimately, it comes down to what works for me but I just don't want to start any bad habits that I'll have to fix later. |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 3:04 am
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When Reece Anderson taught me, I raised A pedal up quite a bit (Reece’s instructions) and I was taught to find a comfortable anchor spot basically behind pedal b. Which, for me, is slightly to the right off centerline behind pedal B. Lifting the A pedal makes it not such an awkward stretch. And I still do that same thing now almost 30 years later. So my left heel stays planted.
But it has to be comfortable to you, so you can relax and allow the left foot to grab whatever pedals as “second nature “
Comfort and second nature are essential for confidence, or...it was for me anyway
FWIW |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 10:22 am
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| I slide my whole foot over a few inches when going from AB to BC... and I've always assumed that's how most people do it. Maybe not? |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 11:25 am
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I’m a slider too. Heel at B for AB and heel between B and C for BC. Franklin pedal gets its own position, right in front, since I don’t use it with an adjacent pedal.
I have wondered about two things regarding heel position for the E9 neck. First, the pedals are so far off to the left, it makes seating with your belly button at fret 15 a little crazy. Secondly, I assume a keyless-headed pedal steel changes this because the pedals (knee levers too) are situated far closer to the center of the guitar body. I am interested to know if keyless players consider this an ergonomic advantage. Maybe a separate topic. |
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Andrew Goulet
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 1:41 pm
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I bop my heel back and forth AB or BC. On the face of it, it seems more efficient and quicker to pivot from a central heel anchor, but I just never played that way. Raising the A pedal is a good tip. I find pedal height in general to be really important. If one of my pedals is off by even a single turn, I'll feel it in my foot and it'll screw me up.
_________________
Marlen S12 and a ZT Club |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 1:42 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| I have wondered about two things regarding heel position for the E9 neck. First, the pedals are so far off to the left, it makes seating with your belly button at fret 15 a little crazy. |
My experience is that the 15th fret thing is dictacted by the fact that PSG builders assume that's the typical seating position -- and that is probably historic inertia, from the lap steel world -- and they select the knee lever mounting locations accordingly. You'll note that the levers aren't mounted so as to be centered; the levers on the right side are situation right next to the changer (and usually a little away from the player) while the left levers are a reasonable distance from the right cluster, but mounted closer to the back apron so you can still reach them with the tip of your knee if seated at the 15th.
So... you sit where the levers are mounted, and the builders mounted them assuming 15th fret.
Your right leg will go under the guitar at a right angle to the back apron, but the left goes under at about a 45-degree angle (see: The Greats on YouTube). Sho-Bud took it to the extreme and on some models, used to mount the LKL at an angle so it didn't even move parallel to the back apron... it would maybe be awkward to use if you weren't sitting at the 15th fret or so.
But you can sit wherever you want, assuming the knee levers on your guitar are such that you can comfortably hit them while also working the pedals.
If seated to the right and the pedals feel too far to the left, you can adjust pedal height to make it more natural, as well as mess with the angle of the dangle on the knee levers. The pedal on the far left (A or C, depending on Emmons or Day) is easier to work if it's raised a little bit as compared to the height that would feel natural if you were, say, seated closer the middle of the guitar. |
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Darryl Coyne
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 5:54 pm Left Heel
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Thanks for all the input. You guys are great. I did a little experimenting with the A pedal height today and found that raising it a bit more helps indeed. with A about 5/8" or so higher than B, I can keep my heel between B and C and still catch A with the ball of my little toe rather than the unreliable situation of having to push down with my toes to work it. Now if I can just keep from walking my foot back while pivoting.  |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 6:57 pm
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I've found that using LESS foot on the A pedal allows me to 'heel pivot' between positions pretty comfortably.
(Emmons set up)
Generally, my ​heel is actually planted more on the B&C side, and those pedals get more of a 'square on' foot when played together.
My tendency used to be to crowd over A&B and reposition for C (or B&C) which worked fine, but I was determined to get that heel pivot happening. So for months I had a leather sunglasses case tied to the bottom of the A&B rods to prohibit me from using more foot than necessary on those pedals. It felt awkward at first because those are the 'action' pedals, but I got used to it and now its way easier and there's more economy of movement going between positions. And no sunglasses case needed anymore 😅 |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 3:55 am Re: Left Heel
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"I can keep my heel between B and C and still catch A with the ball of my little toe rather than the unreliable situation of having to push down with my toes to work it."
It sounds like you are playing without shoes. It's a bad habit, wear shoes. What Andrew Frost and Fred Treece said above is the right answer. Center your body at fret 15, and your left foot will assume a natural position at the pedals, with the heel aligned with the B+C pedals. |
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Darryl Coyne
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 9:55 am Left heel
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Thank you Bill. I have heard of people paying barefoot but that always seemed like a ticket to foot pain down the road to me. I do, however like to feel the pedals as much as possible so I've been using moccasin style house shoes with a thin rubber sole. Its flexible enough that if my toes are the contact point. I have to curl them down to get enough push. As long as the ball of the toes is involved, its a cinch. Of course , I could try stiffer shoes and get my foot working more from memory rather than feel.
By the way, its not fair to leave out that it is a homebrew guitar so I may have shot myself in the foot (pun intended) by spacing the pedals too far. Raising the A definitely helped and I could extend the pedal to the right if needed.
Again, thanks for the input. |
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George Biner
From:
Los Angeles, CA
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 8:50 pm
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I'm a heel mover -- you have to be able to rock between A&B and also between B&C -- that rocking is not going to be the same between positions if your heel is always planted. So techniques you learn for A/B cannot then be used for B/C. And if you ever get a Franklin pedal, or heck maybe a C6 neck, you're heel is going to be movin' around a fur piece anyway.
Also, when I went from a GFI student to my Mullen RP, the Mullen's pedal spacing was 1/8" wider -- it took me awhile to get used to that.
_________________
Guacamole Mafia - acoustic harmony duo
Electrical engineer / amp tech in West Los Angeles -- I fix Peaveys
"Now there is a snappy sounding instrument. That f****r really sings." - Jerry Garcia |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 13 Apr 2021 8:33 am
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What George is saying makes sense, particularly regarding the use of other pedals than ABC.
FWIW, I've found it beneficial to practice without the A pedal hooked up at all. It really forces you to get your B&C phrasing in shape. Ideally, one is able to do the same licks with B&C as with A&B, especially on strings 5&6. Within reason of course.
I suppose at the end of the day everyone's approach will be somewhat different. Here's a nice clip of Gary Carter. Somee good Left foot action is visible around 2:45, that may be helpful.
https://youtu.be/TI56hQOsmos
Last edited by Andrew Frost on 13 Apr 2021 3:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Scott Baumann
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 13 Apr 2021 9:57 am
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| This was great guys. Thank you. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 13 Apr 2021 1:48 pm
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| Quote: |
| Ideally, one is able to do the same licks with B&C as with A&B, especially on strings 4&5. Within reason of course. |
I don’t know, man... AB & BC both raise strings 5, 6, and 3 the same way. Any lick on those 3 strings is the same. Any lick that includes string 4 (and 8, if your C pedal also raises it) and 10 is going to be different, because of Pedal A’s charming quality of leaving string 4 (and 8 ) alone, and C’s charming quality of leaving string 10 alone.
Enjoyed the Gary Carter clip. I’m going to work on adopting his heel position, firmly planted behind Pedal 3, which is his C pedal. In fact it almost looks like his heel is between pedal 3&4. And of course his playing is brilliant! |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 13 Apr 2021 3:43 pm
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Fred, you're totally right. I meant to say string 6&5!
Edited just now. 😅 |
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Jeffrey Shu
From:
Winston-Salem, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 14 Apr 2021 4:33 am
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For several years now, I've felt like I just don't fit my steel. I'm 5'8" on a good day, with stubby legs. Leaning into the steel (sitting closer) lets me get to the knee levers better, but puts my left ankle in stress. I've returned to wearing a boot with a heel to elevate my left foot so I can move between pedals more easily after watching a band video we made this winter and realizing that I'm moving my left leg EVERYWHERE! So many bad habits.
But I'd not heard of the 15th fret position before. Not sure I understood 45 degree angle mentioned above. Are there specs out there to suggest how tall my steel should sit for my height? Could it be my seat instead?
_________________
the bo-stevens (honky tonk/old country) & Tupelo Crush (Americana/rock)
'94 Marlen D-10 w/ BL 705s, '74 Fender TRSF/JBL d120s. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 14 Apr 2021 2:26 pm
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| Jeffrey Shu wrote: |
| ...Leaning into the steel (sitting closer) lets me get to the knee levers better, but puts my left ankle in stress. |
You play a Marlen S-10, right? I have a similar issue on a single-bodied guitar, so went to an SD-10. It's not the pad... it's the fact that you can sit further away from the pedals but still reach the knee levers (since they are mounted near the rear apron of that wider body). So, your ankle does't have to be cocked back so much when you're hovering.
Maybe your next guitar can be an SD-10 or D10. In the meantime, you might consider rigging up some knee lever flags so you can still hit them when you pull your seat back a little.
| Quote: |
| I've returned to wearing a boot with a heel to elevate my left foot so I can move between pedals more easily... |
I also find it easier to do pedal work with at least some heel. For me, the worst is playing at home in house slippers. Even the little bit of altitude you get from, say, a running shoe makes it all easier.
You can also consider lowering your pedal height and that might help.
| Quote: |
| But I'd not heard of the 15th fret position before. Not sure I understood 45 degree angle mentioned above. Are there specs out there to suggest how tall my steel should sit for my height? Could it be my seat instead? |
Don't worry about the 15th fret thing, it's not a fixed rule. On my guitars, it works out 15th is where working all the levers and pedals is most comfortable, but do your own thing.
Not sure what a standard guitar height is, but I also have a Marlen and it is slightly taller than my other guitars. Maybe that was a thing -- or maybe mine was equipped with a lift kit I wasn't aware of? Either way, you might want to lower yours by one inch.
I think a common seat height is around 20". Or maybe 19", if the foam doesn't compress much. Our seat builders can weigh in here and let us know what most people order. |
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Jeffrey Shu
From:
Winston-Salem, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 16 Apr 2021 6:20 am
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Thanks @Tucker Jackson. At least I now know I'm not an inflexible mutant. Didn't know Marlens tended taller. Perhaps shortening the back legs (closest to me) an inch? Would the angle be an issue with playing?
Have pondered a double-neck, but decided for now I've got plenty left to learn on the single (and plenty to carry with a head-and-cab Twin). Haven't considered an SD, though. Hmmm....
And thanks @Darryl Coyne for the original post - hope I didn't hijack your thread, sir. 
_________________
the bo-stevens (honky tonk/old country) & Tupelo Crush (Americana/rock)
'94 Marlen D-10 w/ BL 705s, '74 Fender TRSF/JBL d120s. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 16 Apr 2021 9:05 am
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| Jeffrey Shu wrote: |
| Perhaps shortening the back legs (closest to me) an inch? Would the angle be an issue with playing? |
My sense is that if taken too far, it might be hard on your wrists to have them cocked back. Before you go cutting legs, you can test it out by putting a book or something under the two front legs to see how that playing angle feels. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Apr 2021 10:12 am Seat height
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*****Warning! Off-topic issue being addressed here!****
From the information I’ve gathered on the forum, seat height should be determined by the 90° angle of your legs when bent at the knees.
For me and my 36†inseam, it's about 23â€. For someone with normal legs, it could be 22â€, or 19â€, or whatever. An adjustable-height keyboard bench works great for experimenting with this issue, which is kind of crucial to good pedal and lever technique.
The height of your seat also is obviously a determining factor for pedal steel deck height. |
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Darryl Coyne
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 16 Apr 2021 9:46 pm Left Heel
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| @Jeffery Shu, I don't think you hijacked the thread but even if you did, please continue! I'm pretty new at this and still don't know what I don't know. the Thread started with a basic question and I'm thrilled that so many have chimed in on topic, close to topic and off topic with their advice and experience. It is all relevant to new players like me. Thank you to everyone who has pitched in. I have read everything and I'm sorting through it to figure out what helps in practice. I hope I'm not a bug but I will likely post another "newbie" question very soon. |
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