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Topic: Help me trim the fat |
Baron Collins-Hill
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 1 Apr 2021 9:28 am |
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Hi All, I've done some more poking around on my theoretical copedent. I've landed on an E9/B6 12 or 13 string guitar. 12 is pretty straight U12, and the 13th is a la Bill Stafford.
Here's where I'm at in my scheming. When I threw everything I could think of at it I was well over 60 changes, and now I'm down to 44. 41 without the Low E. Blue changes represent less common options, everything else I've seen regularly on people's copedents.
If this were your guitar, what would you add or remove? I'm more tempted to remove things at this point, but I want to know either way.
Thanks,
Baron
_________________
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Quilter TT15
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 1 Apr 2021 10:31 am
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I haven't played a U12 for a while, but how are you going to hold in LKR for B6 voicings and reach the B6 pedals?
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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Baron Collins-Hill
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 1 Apr 2021 10:32 am
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Ah, good question! I forgot to mention I'd have a lever lock on the E lowers. And I'd be looking at Excel, which has a changer that could take all those changes.
Thanks,
Baron
_________________
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Quilter TT15
Free Online Mandolin & Fiddle Tune Lessons
http://www.mandolessons.com |
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Jim Bloomfield
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 1 Apr 2021 1:19 pm
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| Scott Swartz wrote: |
| I haven't played a U12 for a while, but how are you going to hold in LKR for B6 voicings and reach the B6 pedals? |
It can be done quite easily. I have my U12 set up just that way. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 1 Apr 2021 2:47 pm
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You may want want to have fewer pulls on the low Es and B. The E and B notes are useful under the pedaled and knee-levered chords. So I think your LKR would be better if it only lowered the top 2 E strings. Also your RKR probably should not lower the low Es (11th & 13th) string. Same with P5 (but I think you meant to show P6 lowering your 8th string). By leaving the 11th string on E you can play E maj7 and E7 with the low E. Also, I would not pull the 12th string B to C# with pedal 2. Of course, you can order an instrument with these pulls, and just make them go away with the tuning nut.
You might also change your P3 so that instead of raising string 11 to F#, it lowers it to D. With P2 you get a nice open 5th power chord on strings 10 and 11.
I would consider adding a half-step raise on string 4 to your RKR. This would let RKR do what your P5 does while you leave LKR engaged, and it makes possible a nice E13(-9) on strings 4,5,6,8,11. Or rootless A#7(+9) on strings 4,5,6,8, Since you don't have a D string, this would be the only way to play these chords. I had this change when I played U-12, but it was on RKL, not RKR, because I often used it with LKR, and it seemed more convenient to pull both knees in than to push both (and the whole instrument) to the right. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 1 Apr 2021 2:48 pm
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| Scott Swartz wrote: |
| how are you going to hold in LKR for B6 voicings and reach the B6 pedals? |
Seems natural to me. The pedals are over to the right, and you move your left leg to the right to reach them, so you engage LKR. |
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Andrew Goulet
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Posted 2 Apr 2021 7:03 am
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This could be a non-issue, but some of those changes might be stiff with four changes. I really value easy changes, but others have more tolerance or a different preference for stiffness. I guess it depends on the guitar and changer, as well.
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Marlen S12 and a ZT Club |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 3 Apr 2021 8:20 am
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Might make sense to have a C# drop for string 10 on the Flever (LKL).
Also, in my limited experience with low E strings on E9 it works well to NOT lower them to Eb.
I think Buddy Emmons lowered his low E on the 12 string E13 tuning but I'd think generally the potential maj7/dom7 voicings rooted on that string would be worth prioritizing. |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 3 Apr 2021 6:31 pm
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Forget all of that, go with a SD10 5&5 and light it up.
_________________
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Phone: 971-219-8533 |
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ajm
From:
Los Angeles
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Posted 4 Apr 2021 7:22 am
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I am as far from an expert on SG mechanics as you can get.
That said.....
Andrew Goulet beat me to it.
Those pedals/levers with 3 or more changes might start getting really difficult.
But I like a couple of the changes that you have that aren't seen too often.
That you are thinking and writing things down is commendable.
But dreaming of something is one thing.
Making it happen in the real world is another.
I have that problem all of the time when it comes to super models. ;>)) |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2021 7:39 am
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I don't think the low E will work out very well.
Having had an S14U, that string is very thick and causes the bar to ride differently on the the other strings, causing some undesirable bar chatter. I personally found it to be ergonomically and functionally problematic.
Because I have an Excel, I also think it may be too thick to get on the post.
It is also so thick that is is not typically stocked and often requires a special order when you need a new one.
With that said, some guys like S14U, or 13 in this case.
I believe Robert Randolph plays some 13 Stringers.
I still want to get together and show you my Universals!
Pete |
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Benjamin Davidson
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Posted 4 Apr 2021 10:02 am
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| Baron Collins-Hill wrote: |
Hi All, I've done some more poking around on my theoretical copedent. I've landed on an E9/B6 12 or 13 string guitar. 12 is pretty straight U12, and the 13th is a la Bill Stafford.
Here's where I'm at in my scheming. When I threw everything I could think of at it I was well over 60 changes, and now I'm down to 44. 41 without the Low E. Blue changes represent less common options, everything else I've seen regularly on people's copedents.
If this were your guitar, what would you add or remove? I'm more tempted to remove things at this point, but I want to know either way.
Thanks,
Baron |
I've basically taken a 10 string E9th and been converting it to a universal for the last several years (should have purchased a 12 from the on-set, but I'll get there eventually), you have a great starting point for this transition. I'll get to my recommendations in a moment. Since your interested in the Excel mentioned below, I would actually recommend packing the copedent tighter than you feel you need (or have a threshold of how many changes you want per lever and pack the copedent accordingly). This will allow you to have the extra bell cranks, rods and tuners to experiment and move things around as you start to adapt your playing to the Universal mindset. I've had to reach out to my builder several times for additional parts as I fine tune my setup, and this could costly and avoided by loading the guitar from the start.
| Baron Collins-Hill wrote: |
Ah, good question! I forgot to mention I'd have a lever lock on the E lowers. And I'd be looking at Excel, which has a changer that could take all those changes.
Thanks,
Baron |
We've identified a lock lever between modes, and an Excel build - my concerns over changer use have been eliminated. How dependent are you in using the 9th string D with your current Encore 4x5? I see your change for string 8 to drop to D, but if you use the Eb and the 9th string a lot it may be better to find a location to raise B to D to allow for those combinations. I find that to play what we have available on a traditional E9th, we need the change in both locations. For me, I lower string 8 on a vertical lever above my B6 pedals to allow me to use the Pedal 6 changes anytime, and I use a LKL2 to raise the 9th string B a minor third, and therefore have a Eb and the D notes available together.
On LKR, I would drop the 11th string lower to Eb, reason being is the E is the appropriate none for a Universal with the Es lowered. The same would go for the 13th string here as well. With the Lock you have planned are you locking LKR into a locked position, or a different set of changes? If so, how do you want to address the string 2 to C#? I have found placing the C# on my E lower lever to be the cleanest transition into the B6th mode, and for my playing that lever transitioned from LKR when I started to RKR. I strongly feel that the string 2 to C# change should be engaged with E to Eb, to facilitate you having the equivalent string 1 of a C6 available.
On LKV, common E9th practice to have all Bs to Bb, on a C6th or universal this isn't as common. I kept the change across all Bs to Bb, and that works with my playing style. Its something to think about.
Pedal 3, that change is rather stiff on my guitar with the 8th string E to F#. Is this a change you have on the Encore, or a change you simply wish to add? I wouldn't consider adding the 11th E to F# on top of the other 3 changes here, but could consider it without the string 8 change on that pedal to give options in the lower register.
Pedal 5, I would move the E to D lower from string 11 to string 8 where it would typically be on a Universal, fulfilling C6 pedal 6.
Overall, I'd limit every pedal and lever to no more than 3 changes. On a lever where each change is a half step, you probably get away with it, but check with the builder.
All and All, I think you have a good transition into the Universal ahead of you, I wouldn't pursue the 13th string - It's difficult to find instruction below the low B string, and from a performance or mixing point of view - I think you'd find yourself competing with the bass player.
_________________
Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2021 10:26 am Re: Help me trim the fat
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| Baron Collins-Hill wrote: |
If this were your guitar, what would you add or remove? I'm more tempted to remove things at this point, but I want to know either way.
Thanks,
Baron |
I'd lose the 13th string. Bad luck.  But seriously, few guitar brands can physically accept that large string gauge. Also, none of the changes you've assigned to it make common musical sense in the bass register. E to F# could be useful but I'm not sure where you'd put it.
Recommendations:
- P5 should lower the middle E to D, not the low E. It's primary purpose is a 9th chord voicing rooted on the low E.
- Don't lower the low E (string 11) to D#. It would mess up a lot of your B6th voicings.
- Swap LKR and RKL. It will be much easier to play B6th that way, and you'd have access to LKV in B6th mode.
- Only lower 1 string - the 5th - on your vertical. Again, this is for B6th voicings. Lowering the other B strings would mess things up.
- 4 full-step changes on P3 will be pretty stiff. I'd lose the 8th string raise and lower 11 to D instead (removing that change from RKR).
Lastly, your chart would make more musical sense on the B6th side if you renamed Bb to A#, which is a note in the B natural scale. It's a pet peeve of mine. 
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2021 10:35 am
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As I understand it, the primary purpose of the Franklin pedal lower of low B to A on an S-10 is to extend the range of the guitar. On an S-12 this is unnecessary, as the "B" pedal raises the low G# to A.
Also... I don't know how U-12 players use the 12th string B to C# (on the "A" pedal), but it seems to me that lowering that string to A there would be more useful than the C# note.
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Baron Collins-Hill
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 5 Apr 2021 10:56 am
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| Benjamin Davidson wrote: |
I would actually recommend packing the copedent tighter than you feel you need (or have a threshold of how many changes you want per lever and pack the copedent accordingly). This will allow you to have the extra bell cranks, rods and tuners to experiment and move things around as you start to adapt your playing to the Universal mindset.
Yes, I definitely want to pack it tighter than I need to end up with extra parts, good thought!
How dependent are you in using the 9th string D with your current Encore 4x5?
At this point, not very, I don't tend to need minor seconds on the low end of things, I'm more interested in playing diatonic melodies down low than crunchy jazz voicings, but the option to expand in that direction later is certainly something to think about.
I strongly feel that the string 2 to C# change should be engaged with E to Eb, to facilitate you having the equivalent string 1 of a C6 available.
I like this idea. I'm a little torn about whether to keep the D/C# half steps on RKR as well, or just simplify to D. I do like to be able to hit Eb > D > C# in one move
On LKV, common E9th practice to have all Bs to Bb, on a C6th or universal this isn't as common. I kept the change across all Bs to Bb, and that works with my playing style. Its something to think about.
Definitely, I figure I'll keep them all in here and can always tune out ones that get in the way at the changer end or remove them entirely. Like you said, extra parts!
Pedal 3, that change is rather stiff on my guitar with the 8th string E to F#. Is this a change you have on the Encore, or a change you simply wish to add? I wouldn't consider adding the 11th E to F# on top of the other 3 changes here, but could consider it without the string 8 change on that pedal to give options in the lower register.
This (and P0 Franklin) are my biggest sticking points now. I really want those low octave repeats to at least maintain diatonic flexibility (again, melodies in the low octave)down low, but both of these pedals have a lot going on.
Pedal 5, I would move the E to D lower from string 11 to string 8 where it would typically be on a Universal, fulfilling C6 pedal 6.
Yes, Typo, thanks!
All and All, I think you have a good transition into the Universal ahead of you, I wouldn't pursue the 13th string - It's difficult to find instruction below the low B string, and from a performance or mixing point of view - I think you'd find yourself competing with the bass player.
I also think I should probably steer away from the low E, as much as I admire Bill Stafford's sound. I do really enjoy solo PSG arrangements, but I think being able to go down to that A above the lowest E will be plenty.
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Thanks so much for the thoughts, I'm getting closer!
Baron[/b]
_________________
Excel Superb U14
Quilter TT15
Free Online Mandolin & Fiddle Tune Lessons
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Baron Collins-Hill
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 5 Apr 2021 11:19 am Re: Help me trim the fat
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| b0b wrote: |
Recommendations:
- P5 should lower the middle E to D, not the low E. It's primary purpose is a 9th chord voicing rooted on the low E.
Fixed, Typo!
- Don't lower the low E (string 11) to D#. It would mess up a lot of your B6th voicings.
I can get behind that, may leave it in for extra parts, but I can see that it wouldn't be that useful.
- Swap LKR and RKL. It will be much easier to play B6th that way, and you'd have access to LKV in B6th mode.
I can see that. I'm pretty used to E's on the right after a couple years of E9, but I think I could manage to make the switch. I'll paste it into my next draft.
- Only lower 1 string - the 5th - on your vertical. Again, this is for B6th voicings. Lowering the other B strings would mess things up.
Again, I can see that, especially the lowest Bb. Another option for extra parts if I don't keep the changes.
- 4 full-step changes on P3 will be pretty stiff. I'd lose the 8th string raise and lower 11 to D instead (removing that change from RKR).
That's my big sticking point, Paul Franklin has the E to F# on String 8 and I like that, and I'd love to have it on String 11 as well to realize diatonic flexibility in the low octave, but maybe it's not meant to be.
Lastly, your chart would make more musical sense on the B6th side if you renamed Bb to A#, which is a note in the B natural scale. It's a pet peeve of mine.
Excellent point! Done!
As I understand it, the primary purpose of the Franklin pedal lower of low B to A on an S-10 is to extend the range of the guitar. On an S-12 this is unnecessary, as the "B" pedal raises the low G# to A.
Also... I don't know how U-12 players use the 12th string B to C# (on the "A" pedal), but it seems to me that lowering that string to A there would be more useful than the C# note.
As with P3, I'd love to keep those low B > A Lowers, but it's a tricky one. I'll stew on it
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Thanks for the thoughts!
Baron
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Last edited by Baron Collins-Hill on 5 Apr 2021 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Baron Collins-Hill
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 5 Apr 2021 11:33 am
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Ok, thanks everyone for taking the time to share your thoughts! Here's my next draft:
Red changes could go away or be left in to garner more spare parts.
13th string is gone, and that solves a lot of problems, as much as I loved the idea of being a one man orchestra.
Losing the A#'s in the lower octaves makes sense for the B6 side of things, but also kills my C natural splits. I guess I can have them there and take them out if they cause problems.
P0 and P3 are still my biggest problems as I really want all those changes. Not sure how to go about that...
I like the String 2 D# to C# change on the same lever that lowers the E's to D#. Doing away with the lowest E > D# lower makes sense on E9, but seems to cause problems on the B6 side of things. Thoughts on that?
Speaking on String 2, If I have C# on RKL, should I keep the D# > D > C# half stop on RKR? I do like having that ability, but it looks a little redundant on paper.
Losing the E > D on String 11 makes sense, but I also feel like I'm gonna miss the option for some reason...
Thanks again! I think I'm getting closer!
Baron
_________________
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Quilter TT15
Free Online Mandolin & Fiddle Tune Lessons
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Baron Collins-Hill
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 5 Apr 2021 11:54 am
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I had some misinformation in my last couple posts that I've now edited out.
A far out solution to pedals with too many changes in one direction or another. Not sure if this would make any sense logically, but it would maintain all the changes and greatly reduce pressure:
P0 and P1 swap the lowest B > A and B > C#. Same number of changes per pedal, but P0 is now -4 half steps total rather than -8, and P1 is now +2 half steps rather than +6
Likewise, but maybe even weirder, is swapping the lowest changes between P3 and RKR. making P3 +4 half steps rather than +8, and RKR +2 rather than +6 (assuming I keep the E > D > C# change on String 2).
Looks like this:
Would that foul everything up royally?
Thanks,
Baron
_________________
Excel Superb U14
Quilter TT15
Free Online Mandolin & Fiddle Tune Lessons
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Benjamin Davidson
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Posted 6 Apr 2021 4:07 am
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You are getting closer to your end goal.
I wouldn't shift the string 12 changes between pedal 0 and A, and the reason I say that is if you play any string group other than 10, 11, 12 there you'll have conflict with the rest of the pedal going the other way.
You should be able to time the E to Eb changes to match that stop, timing it could be tricky. I've placed the D# to D lower on my LKL2, which also raises string 9 B to D. It works well for me separated.
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Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 6 Apr 2021 5:52 am
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I would eliminate some of the parallel moves to increase chord voicing options. Like your vertical lever. By putting that 1/2 stop lower on every B string you have crippled quite a bit of your harmonic options. Also if you include a D string it would give all of your pedal moves another level of options. Your basic tuning is all about very rudimentary triad based harmony. Sorta like a bass autoharp. It looks severely limited to me. A standard E9 tuning is more versatile and much more elegant.
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Bob |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2021 6:05 am
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You already have and play an E9th S10, right? So you've got that world covered.
If you are wanting to play Universal you are on the right path with many of your thoughts and ideas.
You could also split the whole thing into a D12, which might work better, but be bigger. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2021 6:42 pm
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Baron and I had a Steel hang today for a coupla hours, with his Encore and my Excel, outside in his garage/driveway.
Baron is a very nice guy who plays several instruments, and I can see that he has a natural sense for playing Steel.
That was fun!  |
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Baron Collins-Hill
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 8 Apr 2021 7:41 pm
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Thanks Pete, sure was! It was great to get some thoughts on U12 and see an Excel in the flesh, what a beautiful piece of machinery and art. Plays easy as can be and sounds great!
Thanks,
Baron
_________________
Excel Superb U14
Quilter TT15
Free Online Mandolin & Fiddle Tune Lessons
http://www.mandolessons.com |
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Phil Ajjarapu
From:
Portland, via Austin, TX via Chicago
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Posted 19 Apr 2021 9:52 am
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| Oh man, next time you guys get together can I join? |
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