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Topic: Ribbon mics |
Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 26 Mar 2021 10:20 pm |
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Is anyone using a ribbon mic for stage use? If so, what?
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Mar 2021 12:36 am
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Good question, Paul - I'll be interested to see the answers. Now that condenser mics are cheap and convenient, I can't think of any stage application where a ribbon would be superior.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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David Spires
From:
Millersport, OH
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Posted 27 Mar 2021 4:41 am
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I've worked with electric guitar players that used a Royer R-121 (ribbon), in conjunction with an SM-57.
-David Spires
_________________
2021 MSA Legend XL 10&7; Asher Electro-Hawaiian Junior Lap Steel; '79 OMI Dobro 66 w/ Scheerhorn cone and setup; '64 Hand-wired Re-issue Fender Princeton Reverb |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 27 Mar 2021 7:45 am
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| Buddy Miller uses a Cascade Fathead (not sure which version, but definitely one with a Lundahl transformer) on each of his amps onstage. The Fatheads are a very practical ribbon as they require less preamp gain than an SM57. I love mine, but haven’t yet bothered to bring it onstage. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 27 Mar 2021 10:23 am
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Does anyone know what mic Paul Franklin uses? That's probably the one I want. 
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2021 10:57 am
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I would think a ribbon would be problematic on most stages. Not all ribbons, though. Many are figure-of-eight polar pattern and pick up both sides of the mic. On a stage you'd get your amp on one side and whatever was loud on the other. That's a feedback issue, potentially, as well. Beyerdynamic and some others are directional ribbons and would do well. They all sound great in the right room. JMO.
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RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 27 Mar 2021 12:01 pm
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From my limited online research, ribbon mics for live stage use present a few issues/problems. But it seems they can be overcome if the right precautions/decisions are taken.
If the mic is a passive ribbon a jolt of phantom power can blow out the mic. But a line booster, such as the Royer DBooster not only boosts the signal to a more useable level for common mixboards, it also shields the mic from phantom power. It fact the DBooster requires phantom power to operate, and none of that power gets transferred to the mic.
This problem is totally eliminated if the ribbon mic is active, as they require phantom power to operate.
Regarding the issue of the figure 8 pattern of most ribbons picking up unwanted room noise, other instruments on stage, and even causing feedback, lots has been written concerning the positioning of the mic versus other noise sources, such as a monitor wedge or nearby amps. It seems a lot can be done to bring the situation under control. That seems plausible on larger stages, but I wonder how well that would work on a small club stage.
Alternatively, there is the SE Electronics Guitar RF Reflexion filter and stand that looks like it would do a good job blocking input to the back side of the mic. I just don't know how well that works.
There are a few ribbon mics on the market that are cardioid or supercardioid. The AEA KU5A is one, but it costs $1200. Plus reviews seem to say the mic sounds a bit different that most figure 8 ribbons.
I am far from buying anything as I hate spending money only to be disappointed. Having said that, the Royer R-10 with a Royer DBooster (about $700 total) seems like a reasonable option. If the SE Reflexion was found to be necessary, that's another $200. The Cascade Fathead II could substitute for about the same total price.
I want to do the patriotic thing and stimulate the economy, but I don't want to waste money.
PS: I already have both an SM57 and an e609 and I'm considering taking a step up.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
Last edited by Paul Sutherland on 27 Mar 2021 8:44 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Mar 2021 12:31 pm
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The strength of a ribbon mic lies in its superb transient response and lack of any resonance in the audible band. You might think therefore that it's totally wasted on something as imperfect as a loudspeaker cone. But then if that speaker is what gives you your distinctive sound, then by all means reproduce it as faithfully as possible, warts and all!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Michael Butler
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2021 3:17 pm
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i have the cascade fatheads also. i have not used them on stage but they are great in the studio.
play music!
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please see my Snakeskin's Virtual Music Museum below.
http://muscmp.wordpress.com/ |
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David Spires
From:
Millersport, OH
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Posted 27 Mar 2021 7:12 pm
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Paul, used to be an MD 421. It brings out the upper mids in a pleasing way, and I have gravitated to it for the same reason you cited. 
Although, we used SM7 mics on my cabinets, when I used real cabinets with Josh Turner.
David Spires
_________________
2021 MSA Legend XL 10&7; Asher Electro-Hawaiian Junior Lap Steel; '79 OMI Dobro 66 w/ Scheerhorn cone and setup; '64 Hand-wired Re-issue Fender Princeton Reverb |
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Gary Newcomb
From:
AustinTexas, USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2021 10:16 pm
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I love the Beyer Dynamic m160!
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Sierra Session U12, Milkman 1/2, Goodrich Omni, Divine Noise Cables, BJS, Solid cosmic gold, baby 👶🻠|
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Michael Brebes
From:
Northridge CA
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Posted 28 Mar 2021 7:17 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| The strength of a ribbon mic lies in its superb transient response and lack of any resonance in the audible band. You might think therefore that it's totally wasted on something as imperfect as a loudspeaker cone. But then if that speaker is what gives you your distinctive sound, then by all means reproduce it as faithfully as possible, warts and all! |
Actually ribbon mics are not flat at all and have a continuous roll off of the highs, which translates to not having a superb transient response. Yes, most do not have a presence boost like many dynamic mics (SM57) or many condenser mics. A more faithful reproduction would be with a condenser mic that has a flat response, like the AKG 414 P48 or ULS.
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Michael Brebes
Instrument/amp/ pickup repair
MSA D10 Classic/Rickenbacher B6/
Dickerson MOTS/Dobro D32 Hawaiian/
Goldtone Paul Beard Reso
Mesa Boogie Studio Pre/Hafler 3000
RP1/MPX100 |
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Peter Leavenworth
From:
Madbury, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2021 9:48 am Ribbon Mic
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When I saw Paul Franklin with the Time Jumpers in Nashville
three years ago he was using either a Shure KSM32 or KSM42, both condenser mics. I bought a 32 and have been quite happy with it.
Peter
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2008 Zum D-10, 1996 Mullens PRP D-10, 1974 Emmons D-10, 1976 Emmons D-10, early 70s Emmons GS-10, Milkman Sideman head w/Telonics 15" speaker, 1966 Fender Super Reverb, 1970 Fender Dual Showman head, Wechter/Scheerhorn and Beard Dobros, 1962 Supro lap steels, Gibson 1939 RB-11 banjo, Gibson 1978 RB-250
banjo......and way too much more |
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Josh Dubin
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 28 Mar 2021 10:22 am
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I just did an overdub session where the engineer miked my cab with a 57 dead at the cone and a Fathead parallel to the grill. Best steel sound I've gotten anywhere! He said the Fathead needs a decent Mic preamp to get enough output. So I am looking to duplicate this setup as I'm putting together my own little DAW. But I have some reservations about doing this live. Why I am providing PA gear to a venue I'm playing? Ribbons are also somewhat fragile, why would I would to risk mine in a club environment and have to carry even more gear? Also as mentioned, the bidirectional figure 8 pattern can pick up other ambient sounds. This is one of the reasons it sounds so good going solo in a studio, but a drawback live. You would also have to carry your own mic pre and make double sure the FOH guy wasn't sending phantom power. If you were doing a major tour with sound team and crew (like Buddy Miller) and you had people dedicated to the care and feeding of this equipment I could maybe see it. For the rest of us this, IMHO if you can't make it sound good cranking through a 57 then you need to look at that part of the chain that starts with your first knuckle and ends at your fingertip! 
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Josh Dubin
Nashville, TN |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 28 Mar 2021 10:31 am
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| John, interesting the engineer said that - my Fathead requires slightly less gain than a 57. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 28 Mar 2021 1:43 pm
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| Michael Brebes wrote: |
| Actually ribbon mics are not flat at all and have a continuous roll off of the highs, which translates to not having a superb transient response. |
I don't think I suggested that ribbon mics have a flat response. They are smooth (i.e. without presence peaks) but they do slowly roll off with increasing frequency.
Although intuition suggests they are related, transient response does not directly correlate with HF response. A mic with a flat or rising HF characteristic (usually a condenser) achieves it with a resonance above or just inside the audible range; any such resonance will impair transients, although you might like the sound anyway.
(The natural resonance of a ribbon is well below the audio range where it can do no harm.)
Ribbon mics I have used over the years are the STC 4038 (now sold as Coles) and the Beyer Dynamic M160. The modern active types with enhanced HF sound very interesting but I don't think I'll ever be able to justify the investment!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 29 Mar 2021 1:08 am
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| Michael Brebes wrote: |
Actually ribbon mics are not flat at all and have a continuous roll off of the highs, which translates to not having a superb transient response. |
A good ribbon mike has superb transient response, far better than an AKG 414 for example, because of the very lightweight membrane. That is probably one reason they sound so smooth and beautiful. The slight high end roll off generally benefits a recording making it tend to sound far more organic, balanced and musical than mikes like the AKG 414.
But ribbon mikes are also quite sensitive to the proximity effect, where the low frequencies bloom as the mike is placed closer to the source. That's yet another reason why they do wonders for amplified instruments if you know the distance that yields a nice low end boost yet balances the sound you want.
But they are fragile to take on the road. They also may be destroyed if you apply phantom power. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 27 Jun 2021 1:34 pm
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I picked up an Audio Technica AT4081 active ribbon mic off ebay. I used it last night for the first time on stage.
I must say all the worries about feedback and bleed through did not materialize. The mic worked flawlessly. I'm sure it helped that all the musicians on my side of the stage were using in ear monitors so there were no wedges. The stage volume was low. I also surrounded the mic with an SE Electronics reflexion filter, although I doubt that was necessary.
The ribbon mic definitely sounded different than my usual dynamic mic, a Sennheiser 609. The ribbon was smooth and, in the words of the lead guitar player, very pleasing sounding. I was able to get a tone that was bright without being piercing. I'm extremely pleased with this mic.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Jun 2021 3:18 pm
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Glad you got a good result. I wonder if you'll start a trend
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 29 Jun 2021 1:51 pm
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I've had engineers use a Royer R121 in the studio, and I liked that a lot. But given the cost of decent ribbon mics, and the inherent fragile nature, I've never considered one for live use.
For years I used an SM-57 'hung over the grill by the cable' (I know, off-axis response!!.. blah blah.. LOL). But it was virtually indestructible, fit in the pack seat, I didn't have to keep up with a stand or bracket, and it was cheap if it went MIA or something.
After moving to a Steelaire a few years ago, I don't carry any mics at all. With more and more of the venues I work around here providing sound, I just point the sound guy to the XLR on the back. If it is the band leader's sound system, same thing, we just run the direct out to his system. I'm sure there may be some 'real' mics that 'sound better' than the Quilter DI, but in the real world, I'll take simple. And I have had a lot of comments from sound guys that the Quilter direct out is easy to work with. So it's probably 'acceptable' at the very least.
In the grand scheme of things (at least for me) simple is good, especially these showcase kinds of things where you have 3 or more bands, and you're swapping gear on and off stage in a frenzy between sets. I'd be a nervous wreck with an expensive mic in the middle of that.
Also, I love the look on his face when the sound guy comes over during setup carrying a stand and a mic (usually an SM-57) and you tell him 'Nah, just use the direct out on the back'. They love it!!
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Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Jamie Mitchell
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 3 Jul 2021 8:12 am
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...
Last edited by Jamie Mitchell on 4 Jul 2021 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 3 Jul 2021 3:37 pm
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You could always write a song about it.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 3 Jul 2021 4:02 pm
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Does this make me a bit of a rebel, or an idiot?
I think the danger is vastly overstated. Time will tell.
PS: Not all ribbon mics are built the same. Some are designed for road use.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Michael Brebes
From:
Northridge CA
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Posted 4 Jul 2021 1:47 pm
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Keith Urban uses ribbon mics for live.
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/ribbon-mics-for-live-sound/
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Michael Brebes
Instrument/amp/ pickup repair
MSA D10 Classic/Rickenbacher B6/
Dickerson MOTS/Dobro D32 Hawaiian/
Goldtone Paul Beard Reso
Mesa Boogie Studio Pre/Hafler 3000
RP1/MPX100 |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 4 Jul 2021 2:02 pm
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Great link Michael. Notice the list of artists using ribbons at live shows includes George Strait, and it mentions they are used on pedal steel, as well as other things.
Maybe I'm not so foolish.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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