| Author |
Topic: ZB Issues |
Bruce Wandmayer
From:
Sedona, AZ
|
Posted 31 Jan 2021 8:49 pm |
|
Several years and many moves ago I acquired a Brumley-era ZB D-10 in need of an overhaul. Never having done that before, I jumped in and tore it down. Well, now I'm settled for the forseeable future and am moving forward on the project again.
One of the few smart things I did was draw a chart of the underside. (I also took some pictures.)
This is my hand-drawn chart of the P1, P2 and P3 crossbars setup as I received it. Do those screw positions look correct? Does the chart make sense to you? I understand it, but I created it.
Here's what the P1–3 crossbars look like at present:
I find that with this configuration the P3/Str 4 changer rod crosses over the P2/Str3 changer rod. It jus' don't seem right; but that's the way my chart had it so that's how I did it. Observations? Comments?
OK, and moving deeper into the dark woods, I realized that I now have 19 string rollers, not the 20 required. One has evidently gone wandering, I have no idea where or when. (Sounds like a Rogers & Hart tune.)
Does anyone have a ZB string roller they can spare? I'll buy it. Much appreciated.
While we're at it, the Kluson tuners are all cruddy; they don't work well, if at all. I've removed them to a plastic bag. Can they be rejuvenated or is it replacement time? I just want this guitar to play well.
Whew, thanks for any help.
_________________
Bruce Wandmayer
Sedona, AZ
Steel on the rocks: shakin', not stirred |
|
|
|
Eric Dahlhoff
From:
Point Arena, California
|
Posted 31 Jan 2021 11:17 pm Rodding a ZB
|
|
It looks reasonable to me. The spokes can go into either side of the changer. Sometimes switching sides can untangle the mess 
If you connect the rods closer to the pivot bolt on the yoke, the pull is faster. Start with the yoke parallel to the bridge and try to balance the pulls by moving the connection on the yoke. And note that sometimes the pivot hole is not centered on the yoke!
Once it's close you can fine tune with the turnbuckles. At least that's how I do it.
I rod them on the visible side to get it close, and then move them to the underside for the fine tuning.
Check with Jim Palenscar - I think he can make rollers.
Good luck!! 
_________________
"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan) |
|
|
|
Matt Sutton
From:
New York, USA
|
Posted 1 Feb 2021 8:33 am
|
|
Looks like you're on the right track, rodding wise.
For the tuners, I had good results soaking them in napatha overnight, and then flushing them out with a syringe. After drying, I used that same syringe to re-pack the housings with petroleum jelly. Not a 100% fix, but pretty good for 55 year old Klusons. |
|
|
|
Eric Dahlhoff
From:
Point Arena, California
|
Posted 1 Feb 2021 9:31 am tuners
|
|
Gotoh makes modern Kluson copies which are excellent and fit right in. But you need 4 sets for a double neck so that's a bit pricey.
_________________
"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan) |
|
|
|
Bruce Wandmayer
From:
Sedona, AZ
|
Posted 4 Feb 2021 1:02 pm Rejuvenating Klusons
|
|
Matt, you say you soak crusty Klusons in Naptha. Got it. Then you flush them; using more Naptha? Where do you get a syringe for flushing and refilling? Hardware store? Pharmacy? Back alley? No needle on it, of course. When you repack them do you do it through the little hole in the face?
Thanks for your assistance.
_________________
Bruce Wandmayer
Sedona, AZ
Steel on the rocks: shakin', not stirred |
|
|
|
Bruce Wandmayer
From:
Sedona, AZ
|
Posted 4 Feb 2021 1:05 pm String Roller
|
|
Does somebody - anybody have ONE extra string roller they can spare or sell to turn my 19-stringer into a real D-10? Thanks mucho!
_________________
Bruce Wandmayer
Sedona, AZ
Steel on the rocks: shakin', not stirred |
|
|
|
Bruce Wandmayer
From:
Sedona, AZ
|
Posted 4 Feb 2021 1:11 pm Crossbar screw positions
|
|
How are your screws positioned on your crossbars for pedals 1–3? Both for fulcrum positioning and for changer yokes?
Mine are set up the way they are because that's how they were when I got the steel, which was unplayable, and had been for who knows how long.
_________________
Bruce Wandmayer
Sedona, AZ
Steel on the rocks: shakin', not stirred |
|
|
|
Eric Dahlhoff
From:
Point Arena, California
|
Posted 4 Feb 2021 6:01 pm Zb - Abc
|
|
Usually pedal C needs to pull a bit farther than A & B so it goes up one hole. String gauges can make a big difference in what holes are used. Also whether #6 is plain or wound.
It can be helpful to set 'em up on the top and once all is perfect move them to the bottom.
_________________
"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan) |
|
|
|
Matt Sutton
From:
New York, USA
|
Posted 5 Feb 2021 4:49 am
|
|
| Hi Bruce- I picked up the syringe at a drug store, it was one intended for oral medicine dosage for kids. And yes, flush with Napatha through any available hole in the housing. Same for repack. Super messy! |
|
|
|
Andrew Goulet
|
Posted 5 Feb 2021 11:42 am
|
|
I've never seen the underside of a ZB. Interesting! Much different then the "bell crank on cross-shaft" systems I'm used to. I imagine it may be hard to get the timing of some changes just right, although this isn't a unique challenge, either. Seems like a ton of mechanical advantage in those flat cross bars.
_________________
Marlen S12 and a ZT Club |
|
|
|
Bruce Wandmayer
From:
Sedona, AZ
|
Posted 5 Feb 2021 10:03 pm Pull lengths and Naptha syringes
|
|
Eric and Matt, thank you both for your invaluable help! Both pieces of information help move this project forward, though it seems to be going at glacial speed.
All the very best to you!
_________________
Bruce Wandmayer
Sedona, AZ
Steel on the rocks: shakin', not stirred |
|
|
|
Bruce Wandmayer
From:
Sedona, AZ
|
Posted 5 Feb 2021 10:35 pm Original condition
|
|
This is a shot of the underside as I received the guitar, showing the condition of P4 – 8 and the right knees, as well as the changer springs and mechanisms. Not pretty. Things are slowly improving. Someday this instrument will make music again.
Also, here's the top, showing how the finish has faded almost completely from the original blue. Did someone leave it out in the sun for years? Not a well cared-for guitar.
_________________
Bruce Wandmayer
Sedona, AZ
Steel on the rocks: shakin', not stirred
Last edited by Bruce Wandmayer on 12 Dec 2021 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Eric Dahlhoff
From:
Point Arena, California
|
Posted 6 Feb 2021 11:43 am
|
|
It's a worthy project! 
I have heard that they used food coloring for the dye on ZBs. Hence the fading.
_________________
"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan) |
|
|
|
Bruce Wandmayer
From:
Sedona, AZ
|
Posted 6 Feb 2021 12:07 pm
|
|
Ah, food coloring! Is that where all those tasty licks came from? (Ouch)
_________________
Bruce Wandmayer
Sedona, AZ
Steel on the rocks: shakin', not stirred |
|
|
|
Billy Knowles
From:
Kenansville, N. C. 28349 usa
|
Posted 6 Feb 2021 6:36 pm color
|
|
don't know for sure but I was told by someone who worked at the factory that it was Wilkins Food coloring.
_________________
Billy Knowles
STEEL GUITAR EAST
Emmons authorized dealer and approved service technician
my web site: http://www.steelguitareast.com |
|
|
|
Billy Knowles
From:
Kenansville, N. C. 28349 usa
|
Posted 7 Feb 2021 1:58 pm roller
|
|
Bruce, I have one, give me your address and I will send it to you
Thanks
Billy Knowles
_________________
Billy Knowles
STEEL GUITAR EAST
Emmons authorized dealer and approved service technician
my web site: http://www.steelguitareast.com |
|
|
|
John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
|
Posted 15 Feb 2021 10:44 pm
|
|
Bruce, when did you leave Santa Cruz for Sedona? Liking it there?
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
|
|
|
Bruce Wandmayer
From:
Sedona, AZ
|
Posted 24 Apr 2021 12:07 am Tuner mounting screws
|
|
OK, after rehabbing the Kluson tuning machines with Naptha, then Sil-Glyde (a NAPA product recommended by Lynn Stafford), I'm ready to reinstall them into the... uhh, pieces that hold the tuners, whatever they're called. I notice that the tuners were attached with sheet metal screws. Is that how ZB did it? Emmons used machine screws, which seems a bit more elegant. If machine screws are the proper way I'll get 40 of those and lose the sheet metal screws. Otherwise, the sheet metal screws work just fine.
Thanks again!
_________________
Bruce Wandmayer
Sedona, AZ
Steel on the rocks: shakin', not stirred |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 24 Apr 2021 3:33 am
|
|
| Andrew Goulet wrote: |
| I've never seen the underside of a ZB. Interesting! Much different then the "bell crank on cross-shaft" systems I'm used to. I imagine it may be hard to get the timing of some changes just right, although this isn't a unique challenge, either. Seems like a ton of mechanical advantage in those flat cross bars. |
Actually, that yoke system pretty much takes care of the timing problems. When you activate a pedal, the yoke swivels until all pulls reach the point of resistance from the strings, then pulls all changes. Both ZBs I had did this. I think they bottomed out at the same time too. Using different holes in the yokes and in the crossbar helps get things right. This system is pretty much the same as the yoke system used for horses pulling buggies and stage coaches. Kline used the same type of system, although he refined it a little. Out of the ZBs, Kline, Sho-Buds, Williams, Mullen, and Carter I have owned, the Kline and ZBs were my favorites.
Bruce... Great job on the restoration.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
Eric Dahlhoff
From:
Point Arena, California
|
Posted 24 Apr 2021 6:24 am
|
|
Yes - sheet metal screws. 
Once I went to the trouble of tapping the holes & using machine screws. It was not worth it.
Now I always keep the screws in order and put them back in the same holes to avoid problems.
_________________
"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan) |
|
|
|
Bruce Wandmayer
From:
Sedona, AZ
|
Posted 24 Apr 2021 10:59 am
|
|
I can't thank you enough for the info, Eric. Yes, tapping the holes would be a lot of tedious work. Glad to hear it's unnecessary.
My sheet metal screws are all in a bag, unsorted. I'll just have to put them back in where they land. Hopefully, individual positioning isn't vital.
And onwards...
_________________
Bruce Wandmayer
Sedona, AZ
Steel on the rocks: shakin', not stirred |
|
|
|
Bruce Wandmayer
From:
Sedona, AZ
|
Posted 4 May 2021 7:28 pm Crossbar machine screws
|
|
I found it difficult to reassemble the crossbars and get the machine screws into the center strap, if that's what it's called. (If a picture would help to identify the parts, there are a few earlier in this thread.) The screws just didn't want to start and were hard to turn.
I went to the local hardware store (Ace, my-home-away-from-home), center strap and machine screws in hand. It was difficult to get the screws to start and turn in the 10-32 guide. I thought, "Well, let's try something else." I moved over to the metric zone; the machine screw went smoothly into the 5mm-80 guide. OK, it's metric. I pulled a 5mm tap off the wall and was about to head for the register, when cooler heads prevailed. I thought, "Why in the world would everything be standard except for one set of screws/receptacles, which are metric?" Upon further thought it seemed highly improbable; not impossible, but definitely highly improbable.
So my question, after all this blather, is: These screws and screw holes are actually 10-32, right? If so, I'll get out the proper taps and dies and clean up all the threads.
Thanks for your help; I appreciate you all.
Until next time. And of course there will be a next time; I'm flying blind and nowhere near land ;-}.
_________________
Bruce Wandmayer
Sedona, AZ
Steel on the rocks: shakin', not stirred |
|
|
|
Bruce Wandmayer
From:
Sedona, AZ
|
Posted 5 Sep 2021 12:52 pm
|
|
This is the P4–7 setup as I received the guitar so long ago. Wouldn't it make more sense to turn over the cross pieces the changer rods attach to so the rods are pulling directly? Rather than being behind the pivot post? Better balance and pull. Does my explanation make sense? My thoughts. Yours?
Thank you.
_________________
Bruce Wandmayer
Sedona, AZ
Steel on the rocks: shakin', not stirred |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 5 Sep 2021 4:08 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| ...the finish has faded almost completely from the original blue. Did someone leave it out in the sun for years? Not a well cared-for guitar. |
It doesn't have to be sunlight. The UV component of just about any kind of light can fade unstable dyes, especially florescent lamps.  |
|
|
|
Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
|
Posted 6 Sep 2021 6:53 am
|
|
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| It doesn't have to be sunlight. The UV component of just about any kind of light can fade unstable dyes, especially florescent lamps. |
And isn't the natural, completely faded color far more beautiful anyway? The blue and other artificial colors look so 50's, don't they? Like the guitar was owned by George Jetson or something  But maybe some have a lot of nostalgia for such things? |
|
|
|
