| Author |
Topic: Why E9 instead of D9 |
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 16 Jan 2021 3:51 pm |
|
I don't know the answer to the original question. I wasn't alive when the pedal steel just started to be used in country music or the immediately preceding time when Hank and Lefty heavily defined the "country music sound" and its use of steel guitar in the music that followed. But historically, it has always seemed to me that Don Helms' E13 sound with Hank really set a marker for the commercial country sound following Hank, and into the adoption of pedal steel in Nashville.
I have tried tuning E9 down to D9. One time I tried without changing the strings to a heavier gauge, and I felt the sound lost a lot of its sparkle, the string and pull action felt flabby, and I just didn't care for it. Another time, I calculated the gauges needed to retain about the same tension as a normal set on E9, and it sounded better but thicker - that could be good or bad, depending on what you wanted.
IMO, comparing typical PSG gauges/tensions to those of a typical six-string electric guitar is completely apples and oranges. I think the most common string gauges for the typical guitar slinger are a 10-46 (hi-lo) 'regular slinky" type nickel wound set (heavy benders and shredders often go 9-42), and the tensions come to something in the ballpark of (10-46 set) [note lo-hi (pounds)]:
| Code: |
25.5" Strat/Tele type scale: E2(18) A2(20) D3(20) G3(18) B3(17) E4(18)
24.75" Les Paul type scale: E2(17) A2(19) D3(19) G3(17) B3(16) E3(17) |
Such a set feels real slack playing slide guitar - many if not most slide players up these significantly, and many of the most common slide tunings like Open E Vestapol and Open A tighten the strings from there too.
So pedal steel gauges are on a different planet from the typical guitar setup these days. To compare, consider an Extended E9 tuning so we can get the same lower range as guitar. Typical (gauge tension) run on a 24.25" scale something like (there are variations depending on string construction & materials):
| Code: |
| E2 (56w 25) G#2(46w 26) B2(38w 26) D3(34w 30) E3(30w 30) F#3(26w 29) G#3(20p 26) B3(18p 29) E4(14p 32) G#4(11p 31) D#4(15p 32) F#4(13p 34) |
Lowering those a whole tone to D9 gives more like
| Code: |
| D2 (56w 20) F#2(46w 21) A2(38w 21) C3(34w 24) D3(30w 24) E3(26w 23) F#3(20p 20) A3(18p 23) D4(14p 25) F#4(11p 25) C#4(15p 26) E#4(13p 27) |
The low strings on Ext E9, E9/B6 universal, and C6 have always felt pretty slack to me anyway - those are tensions between 24 and 25 pounds for, e.g., the low C, F, and A on C6 (.070w, .056w, .046w) and those are bigger than what's on most sets, which typically go .068w, .054w, .042w. I can't imagine wanting to go lower tension on the low strings at all. I'd go higher if I could get the bloody strings through the tuning peg holes!
Anyway - tuning down, I just think I would lose what I came to E9 pedal steel for, which is lots of ringing sustain and chime that the higher register and tighter tension give.
BTW - I only break E9 3rd strings if I let them stay on the guitar way too long. To me, it's a non-issue on a properly set up guitar on which I change strings before any important show. If they break during practice or rehearsal, no sweat.
AND - I used this string tension calculator 'cause it has a pretty wide selection of gauges - https://tension.stringjoy.com/ |
|
|
|
J R Rose
From:
Keota, Oklahoma, USA
|
Posted 16 Jan 2021 7:01 pm
|
|
I do like the sound of a 10 string tuned down to D-9th.
I tried it for a while but I had enough problem's learning the E-9th that I just could not revise my mind to think D-9th. Could not change in my mind the position on the fret board. So I gave up. J.R.
_________________
NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose |
|
|
|
Charles Kurck
From:
Living in Arkansas but Heaven is home
|
Posted 17 Jan 2021 9:13 am String Tension
|
|
I have read that string tension should be calculated using the highest note that the string is pulled to.
The gauges in my chart evens out the tension for the pulls I use.
I play 10 string pedal steel.
_________________
"Life is better if we're saved, and death is too." |
|
|
|
Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
|
Posted 17 Jan 2021 9:53 am
|
|
| Travis Wilson wrote: |
| I heard once that the Buckaroos tuned to Eb. Does that mean Tom Brumley played in Eb9? |
In answer to your question, Travis, yes. They tuned down because those old Fender steels broke strings like crazy. So they tuned down a half-step. It really makes for fun when trying to copy those Don Rich guitar licks. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 17 Jan 2021 5:22 pm
|
|
Charles Kurck - I've read that the tension of wound strings is determined by the diameter of the plain steel core. Is that true and, if so, have you measured the cores of the strings that you use?
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Charles Kurck
From:
Living in Arkansas but Heaven is home
|
Posted 18 Jan 2021 6:36 am Measuring Force to find Tension
|
|
Bobby Lee:Â Â
I have thought that tension is determined by measuring the pounds of force required to bring the string up to pitch. Â
The pounds of tension shown in my chart came from an online calculator like this. Â
https://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_guitar_string.htm
Or the one provided by Dave Mudgett. Â
https://tension.stringjoy.com/
I know string sets use lighter gauges for the bass strings but the heavier gauges give me the sound, tension and balance I prefer. Â
Strings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_(music)
_________________
"Life is better if we're saved, and death is too." |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 18 Jan 2021 8:28 am Re: Measuring Force to find Tension
|
|
I see. The first one apparently includes core measurements for D'Addario strings. The second one is more generic.
Wound strings cannot use the same formula as plain ones. Any calculator that doesn't take that into account is flawed. The ones that you're using are both good.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 18 Jan 2021 10:01 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| I've read that the tension of wound strings is determined by the diameter of the plain steel core. Is that true and, if so, have you measured the cores of the strings that you use? |
It's more complicated than that. In MKS units (meters m, kilograms kg, seconds s), the relation between an ideal string's physical parameters and tension T (Newtons = kg-m/s2) is given by this equation (here's a good source for derivation if you are interested - http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Waves/string.html)
T = μ * (2*f*L)2 where μ is the unit string density in kg/m, f is the fundamental vibration frequency in Hz (s-1), and L is the string length in meters.
Converting approximately to the units most people use for scale length and string calculations (pounds and inches), then Newtons = pounds-force*4.4482, kg = pounds-mass/2.2046, and m = inches/39.3701. So T in pounds-force is given, to 2 decimal points, by
T = μ*(2*f*L)2/(4.4482*2.2046*39.3701) = μ*(2*f*L)2/386.08, where μ is now in pounds/linear-inch and L is in inches scale length
This corresponds pretty closely to D'Addario's string tension formula here - https://www.daddario.com/globalassets/pdfs/accessories/tension_chart_13934.pdf. Their constant is 386.4, they may have an empirical correction, to get that additional 0.32 in the constant.
To the issue at hand - the unit string density of core is generally higher than that of the windings. According to this wikipedia source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_vibration#Real-world_example - the unit string weight per cubic cm volume of D'Addario music wire is Ï = 7.726 gram/cm3 for the plain steel-alloy strings, while Ï = 6.533 for their nickel-wound steel alloy strings. I imagine they must be assuming a constant winding-to-core ratio. It's not clear to me whether the unit string densities reported in that D'Addario chart, to which I linked above, are measured or calculated.
In any case, I think any of the string tension calculators mentioned or the D'Addario chart are certainly good enough to get reasonably close to the actual string tension. But there are obviously going to be variations based on differences in string winding materials, core diameter, and winding methods. And all these calculations are based on an idealized string model, which doesn't account for string stiffness. Still, I use these calculators routinely to make up roughly equal-tension sets in a wide variety of slide guitar tunings, and they always feel better to me than any type of made-up set. You're never going to get them exact, nor do I think that matters.
| Quote: |
| I know string sets use lighter gauges for the bass strings but the heavier gauges give me the sound, tension and balance I prefer. |
Yes, as I said above, the bass strings on pedal steel sets, especially the low strings on C6 and E9/B6 universal always seem pretty slack to me. I'd prefer if they were heavier. But on those real low strings, I sometimes find the string gauge I would prefer really doesn't fit through the tuner hole. I actually have (carefully) reamed a few slide guitar tuner holes to accomodate heavier low strings, but it can be a bit perilous. It's easy to wind up with a sharp edge that will break the string. I always have to carefully polish up with fine (800/1000/1500/2000) grit sandpaper. I haven't had the guts to do that to my pedal steels - some of the tuners are hard to find if I messed it up, and so on. |
|
|
|
