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Topic: Why E9 instead of D9 |
George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2021 2:35 pm |
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| If we used D9 instead of E9, we wouldn't have to deal with 3rd string breakage. There must be a reason guitars are tuned E9. Also, I use B6 instead of C6 so I am playing on the same frets I'm used to on E9. I use universal strings and discard the top two strings. Being primarily an E9 player and learning it first, B6 works a lot better for me. I like to get C on the first fret instead of open. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2021 2:48 pm
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You wouldn't have to deal with 3rd string breakage if you used Jagwire Strings.
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 15 Jan 2021 4:09 pm
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I never understood the logic of using an.011,which is bigger than the E most six-stringers prefer and then tuning it TWO whole-steps up, but I haven't broken one in years, so there's that. E9 instead of D9? Seems to me that most steel players either started with or have learned their way around a six-string and there's not the need to do mental transposing.
All that said, the thought of being able to get a little lower on the 9th tuning is intriguing, and if I didn't play U-12 I might think some about D9... |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 15 Jan 2021 4:21 pm
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B6 is a no-brainer. I used it before I went universal.
Like Dave, I'm too ingrained in B6/E9 to want to experiment with a D tuning, but I imagine it would have a mellow feel, rather like Bb6
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 Jan 2021 4:31 pm
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If you change the 3rd string a little more often, it wouldn't break. I haven't broken any string in at least a couple of years.
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2021 5:38 pm
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Interesting thing....on the back of an old Sho-Bud LP course by Neil Flanz there’s a string gauge chart for C9th, D9th, and E9th. Wonder who played C9th?
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"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2021 8:40 pm Why E9 instead of D9
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I used Jaqwire strings for a couple of years, then Danny had a heart attack and couldn't fill orders. They are great strings and didn't break. I then heard good things about Live Steel strings and knew Sid Hudson, so I gave them a try. When I unwound the first string, they felt different and more flexible. I have been using them exclusively for several years and have never had one to break.
Back to my original question, it appears nobody knows why we tune E9 instead of D9, other than that's just the way we've always done it. Could it be the higher pitch just has a better country sound and cuts through the mix better. As far as C6th, I think it is a carry over from the western swing era and before E9th existed. The C6th players had no reason to change the tuning they already knew how to play when E9th came on the scene. I think if E9th had come first, then B6th would have been the logical way to go to match up fret movement with the E9th neck. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it and my B6th tuning. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2021 9:28 pm
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| Dave Hopping wrote: |
| I never understood the logic of using an.011,which is bigger than the E most six-stringers prefer and then tuning it TWO whole-steps up, but I haven't broken one in years, so there's that. |
This is true across the board with a set of 10-46 electric guitar strings. All 6 strings are in tune at lower tension than their equivalent counterparts on pedal steel. I have wondered about it too, and have some suspicions. More tension on psg strings is only counterintuitive on the sustain end of things. If all you wanted was more sustain, yeah, tune all your strings down a couple whole steps. But you would sacrifice playability, tuning stability, volume, and intonation, not to mention tone, which I imagine would suffer somewhat. So, standard tensions were arrived at that allowed for maximizing all those aspects of string physics as applied to steel guitar and balancing out the results.
When you tune your steel down to D9 or Bb6, do you change string gauges that are standard to E9 and C6? My guess would be in the affirmative, and that they would all be greater by a few thousands.
As far as why E9, why E anything? Because everybody expects you to play Steel Guitar Rag. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 15 Jan 2021 11:15 pm
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I spent about 3 months near the end of last year with a D9/A6 tuning.
The appeal for me is that the tone generally sits more or less in the middle of E9 & C6. And yes, F# is less worrisome than high G# for string breakage!
It really has its own character when you get to know your way around the tuning.
But I REALLY started to miss the chimey, agile lightness of classic E9 or B6/E9.
You can play all kinds of stuff on D9 but to my tastes it just doesn't quite ring out the same way as E9.
(That said, as a footnote I think D13 is probably the most versatile tuning one could use on pedal steel. But I've yet to really spend time with that particular tuning).
Historically though, the E9 tuning has been around for a long time. The original E7 tuning begat Sol Hoopi's E13. I don't know exactly when the 9th tone emerged, but interestingly that E13 was apparently the first use of a 6th tone (13th).
Don Helms put a high G# on his E6 tuning in the 40s or early 50s and it has carried over.
My understanding of this historical stuff is in broad strokes so if anyone can elaborate on the details I'd be all ears. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 15 Jan 2021 11:26 pm
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| Marty Broussard wrote: |
| Interesting thing....on the back of an old Sho-Bud LP course by Neil Flanz there’s a string gauge chart for C9th, D9th, and E9th. Wonder who played C9th? |
😅 Maybe that's a typo. Someone posted a video on here years ago of an A9 (!!) back neck tuning. European fellow. It was absolutely killing! Really low timbre. Sounded incredible. |
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 15 Jan 2021 11:41 pm
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| As best as I can understand from how it was explained to me, is E is about as high as one could reasonably go without the higher strings being too small to have substantial sound. If One started with A( I know of some 10 string A tunings that use a 0.080†string on the low note) and it’s appropriate gauges, and progressed upwards in pitch and string gauges until you’re pretty much out of good options, E is pretty much where you end up. The D9 isn’t that really about string breakage with your existing gauges, if you tune down, you’d benefit from heavier strings. On the tone and sustain side of things, the more tension you can have, usually the better. This of course is not a consideration on console tunings where there is no mechanical action, but Of course has its limits in the pedal world. A for instance, I once had a 26†scale Fender Stringmaster, and used only slight lighter gauges than standard. With such a long scale it had a LOT of tension, but it literally rang like a harp, and would sustain until you got tired of hearing it. I think that is why a lot of folks today are going for the 0.012†3rd string these days, as it adds as much clarity and sustain as is possible. |
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Charles Kurck
From:
Living in Arkansas but Heaven is home
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 16 Jan 2021 5:55 am
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I'm wondering, if that C9 is real, whether it's an alternative for the front neck or the rear.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 16 Jan 2021 6:14 am
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I’ve heard that Fred Rose asked Don Helms to tune his steel up to E instead of C to make his parts cut through the noisy barroom din on jukeboxes or on radio so everyone would know a Hank Williams song was playing. It was a marketing decision more than a musical one. Since pedal steel developed from non-pedal tunings, the Mooney approach of putting on the high G# was a natural progression. That sounds to me like as a good an explanation as any for the modern E9.
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2021 7:26 am Why E9 instead of D9
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Fred, as I mentioned in my original post, I use standard 12 string E9/B6 universal string sets. I just don't use the top two strings which are for the E9th timing on a universal. The two strings that I don't need are standard E9th top two strings, .012 and .015. These give me spares for my E9th top two strings. I use .012 for my third string, so I have a spare 3rd. The .015 is a spare for the 2nd string, but in an emergency, I could use it for a spare 4th string.
Last edited by George Kimery on 16 Jan 2021 7:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Travis Wilson
From:
Johnson City, TX
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Posted 16 Jan 2021 7:30 am
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| I heard once that the Buckaroos tuned to Eb. Does that mean Tom Brumley played in Eb9? |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 16 Jan 2021 7:46 am
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I haven't broken a 3rd string for a long time. Either on the Franklin or my current GFI. Same with string brands, George L's or now SIT. I use .011's.
Not playing out, I haven't changed strings for a while, but my changing strings (sets) was 10 shows. That seems to have "fixed" breakage problems due to metal fatigue.
I'm E9/C6 (with high G on C6th 1st string). That was the "standard" when I started on Pedal Steel in 1969.
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2021 9:12 am
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| Dave Hopping wrote: |
| I never understood the logic of using an.011,which is bigger than the E most six-stringers prefer and then tuning it TWO whole-steps up, but I haven't broken one in years, so there's that. |
I think an .011 doesn't break on PSG because the scale length is so much shorter than a guitar's. A length of 24-1/4" is common on steel while, say, a Telecaster is 25-1/2". If you slap a particular string guage on both and tune to the same note, the tension will be much less on the PSG. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2021 9:44 am
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I use D tunings (D6th and D9th) because I prefer the timbre, not because of string breakage. Also, pedals down gives you a G chord (like a dobro) and lowering 4 and 8 gives you an A6th (popular for western swing). What's not to like? 
With modern pedal steel guitars and strings, high G# breakage is no longer a problem on E9th. I was playing E9th with a band for 4 years when I broke a very old G# on the bandstand. The band was very surprised. They didn't know that a pedal steel could break strings!!  I knew I should have changed that string - it wasn't sounding right.
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2021 9:48 am
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I use .0115 for my 3d string, and have yet to break one.
Changing strings regularly helps; I've been using Frenchy's strings for years without incident.
Interesting that you use B6 for your back neck.
Using the same frets as E9 is one reason I love U12, which is all I've had for decades. U12 also allows for a top string equivalent of D or G.
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1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amps w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2021 10:14 am
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Good point, Tucker. Here is a discussion on string tension and scale length. It devolves a little but the devo includes a relevant quote from BE.
https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/012534.html
Just for one comparison of standard guitar tuning and psg, string tension on a 25.5 scale .010 string tuned to E is about 16#. An .011 tuned to G# on a 24.5†scale length is 28#.
Based on this calculator:
https://stringtensioncalculator.com/
which you might find useful if considering a tuning change. |
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Daniel McKee
From:
Corinth Mississippi
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Posted 16 Jan 2021 12:06 pm
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| Tried D9th on a Miller custom. It wasn’t terrible but I think it would sound better on a longer scale. |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 16 Jan 2021 12:21 pm
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
| Dave Hopping wrote: |
| I never understood the logic of using an.011,which is bigger than the E most six-stringers prefer and then tuning it TWO whole-steps up, but I haven't broken one in years, so there's that. |
I think an .011 doesn't break on PSG because the scale length is so much shorter than a guitar's. A length of 24-1/4" is common on steel while, say, a Telecaster is 25-1/2". If you slap a particular string guage on both and tune to the same note, the tension will be much less on the PSG. |
Good point, Tucker! I'd completely spaced out the 24 3/4 scale length of my U-12(a Mullen RP). On my six-strings, the Gibsons all have .10s and play "like buttah", but in anticipation of playing Niagara Falls, slowly I'm turning to .009s on the Fenders.  |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2021 12:38 pm
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According to https://stringtensioncalculator.com/
Scaleâ€......Note.....Gaugeâ€......Tension#
24.25........G#4........011..........28.27
24.75........G#4........011..........29.448
25.5..........G#4........011..........31.26 |
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