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Topic: Emmons push pull set up???? |
Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 6:39 am |
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Is there a good answer to why some of the best push pull Set up pros set up a push pull Emmons with firm pedal action??
I’m thinking the good push pull techs have too keep the start an finish timing in sync for good tone.
Last edited by Johnie King on 15 Sep 2020 5:23 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 9:36 am
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Since there are no additional fulcrum points on a puller like there are on an all pull guitar, how do you change the pull rate on a PP?
My guess is loosening a spring is your only avenue for adjusting pedal effort? |
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 10:03 am
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In short.... no, lol! A push pull with a clean(not greasy and gunked up) and not over shimmed changer, can play almost as light as you could want. A lot of the stiffness, in lowers particularly, is due to the changer being too tight in some way and the return springs having to be over tightened to compensate. Raises also are affected by mechanical resistance, and makes them more difficult to time. So, the root of at least some of the stigma against push pull action is often a lack of changer maintenance. Since it requires removing and cleaning the changer, it often isn’t done. The good news is, if stuff isn’t put in the changer that doesn’t belong there, it should never need it! Then there’s the undercarriage setup. The timing, resistance, and travel for the raises can be adjusted by using different holes in the changer fingers. A lower hole in the finger is often used, which increases resistance, in trying to shorten the travel; when the correct length/strength spring and proper setup for the lowers can often accomplish this without increasing resistance. The lowers are a bit tougher, with the only way to adjust timing is with the springs. Resistance can only be changed by adjusting the return spring, or the pedal geometry if one wanted to go that far.
So, there is a huge matter of preference and taste, but an E9 tuning especially benefits from a slightly longer, lighter action. The extra travel is noticed much less than the extra resistance if one plays any amount of time, and the extra travel can make “squeezes†more fluid and articulate.
Finally, many of the supposed limitations of push pulls are largely misunderstandings, they can pretty much play and perform any way you’d like, as can most guitars. |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 1:33 pm
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I agree with Kelcey.
Steel Guitar Hall of Famer Bobby Black, who has owned several push-pulls over the years, played my D-10 Emmons push-pull a few years ago and said that it "played like butter".
What did I do to it?
Very little...
Twenty-plus years ago, I bought Clem Schmitz's bargain-priced booklet "Methodology And Practice In Pedal Steel Guitar", implemented his adjustment suggestions, and haven't touched the undercarriage since.
My philosophy is: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"....
- I lubricate it regularly--at least once a year.
- Once a year, I make sure the pedal stops are bottoming out solidly.
- I do not monkey around with things that are working, like return or compression springs or the little wires linking the changer fingers to the pull-rods.
That's it!
................................................
Clem usually sells the booklet on eBay listed as "Pedal Steel Guitar Methodology P/P Guide Booklet" for $15.
He also sells a combo package of the book and 2 DVDs as " Pedal Steel Guitar METHODOLOGY P/P Book & DVD's Package" for $20.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pedal-Steel-Guitar-METHODOLOGY-P-P-Book-DVDs-Package-/280598597396
I'd recommend the $20 "combo package".
If you can't find it on eBay, you can email Clem at:
freedomsauce(at)comcast(dot)net
- Dave |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 10:08 pm
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My preference is for a short, but light action.
I achieved this by using helper springs on the raises, which almost (but not quite) counterbalances the tension that the string exerts.
By counterbalancing this tension, the lowering spring tension can also be correspondingly reduced, making activation of the lowers very easy.
Something for you to think about, Kelcey, next time you have a PP on your workbench. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 11:11 pm
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If we're talking about just setting up a PP, some things that I concentrate to get it playing easily are:
BALANCING:
make sure the changes on any lever or pedal are balanced. That means that all changer fingers involved start moving at the same time and (more critically) end at the same time. If that isn't happening at the endpoint of travel, you are trying to move the lagging fingers against the additional resistance provided by the fingers which are already "bottomed out" at the body (raises) or end-plate screws (lowers). Balancing is accomplished by choice of changer finger leverage points (higher is longer and easier) & judicious use of pull/push-rod compression springs to help synchronize timing.
LOWER SPRINGS:
adjust them individually to just a tad tighter than that needed for the corresponding lower finger to return to open pitch. Over-tightening these springs only adds stiffness.
PEDAL RETURN SPRINGS:
I remove these off pedals A & B, which further decreases pedal resistance. Most PP mechanics (Lynn Stafford, Billy Knowles) don't because that can cause pedal rod drop out if one isn't careful during set-up.
FRICTION: Clean moving parts when necessary and lube
appropriately. Excess much oil will attract dirt. Also observe (and listen to) the pedals and lever in action while the guitar is "belly-up" on the work bench. Move rods and bell-cranks where needed, to alleviate any friction discovered.
There is a lot more that can be done to set PPs to play well. Guys like Lynn & Billy have made an art-form out of doing it. |
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 8:33 am
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Richard,
The helper springs certainly make sense on strings that are only raised, but would not the springs separate the raise finger from the tuning screw when lowering the string? |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 12:24 pm
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Kelcey,
On a string that lowers as well as raises, I attach the helper spring to the finger at one end, and to the rod that lowers that string at the other end.
This means that the whole helper spring assembly travels with the lowering rod.
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 12:52 pm
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Richard,
That is very interesting, and makes good sense! I shall try this out, thank you! |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 2:55 pm
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 3:02 pm
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| Wow Richard that’s cool thank you. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 9:13 pm
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Don’t know what some of you classify as easy pedal action but both of my push pulls play as easy as my Zums did but not as easy as a Sho Bud I had. To me, a proper set up Sho Bud has easiest pedals, certain models that is.
On a push pull, it’s all a matter of timing since there is very little you can do with the fulcrum point other than the 3 holes in changer finger. Another reason for stiff pedals is those dang pedal return springs. The are just way to stiff for the job they do. Ace hardware usually have some exact springs but about half the strength that you can swap out on your guitar with no adjustments. However, I usually take pedal return springs off A and B pedals and with proper adjustment on pulls, the pedal rod won’t hop out. Mine never has come out, even hauling it around. This requires proper adjustment. I leave springs on on C pedal and C6th pedals as you really don’t notice as bad on those.. It takes quite a bit of tweaking by using different length compression Springs to get one to play easier. All guitars are different also.The mid 70’s push pulls seem to play easier than the 60’s guitars but a friend of mine has a 65 wrap around that plays like a dream so go figure. My 68 plays easy also.
All of this is assuming that changer works good and lubed properly and also your pedal rack moving parts also work smooth.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 9:58 pm
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This is my 68 and as you can see the new springs and no spring on A pedal and very light tensile springs on rest. The compression spring on A pedal 10th string keeps the cross bar part that holds pedal rods down so pedal rod can’t come out. I do have spring on B pedal because I lower 6 and it has the split so it needs a certain amount of slack so spring just works better.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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