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Topic: Actually playing rock on pedal steel. |
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 20 Jun 2021 12:52 pm |
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Cody L’s question has shifted the focus a little here. In agreeing with much of what Donny and Dennis have said, I’ll add my dos centavos.
There is no denying the “guitarness†of a pedal steel guitar, so there is no reason to think it can’t rock just like a Gibson or an Ibanez or a Fender 6-string plugged onto a Marshall. In fact, one could argue it screams wilder and growls meaner than those.
One thing a pedal steel is NOT capable of doing better than a standard guitar is producing a solid rock rhythm backup. I’ve heard good players try it, and maybe they come close, but its really not made to do that job. If that is what Cody meant by his proposal, then I agree with that part of it. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 20 Jun 2021 4:11 pm
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I have to disagree. I pedal steel can play a rock rhythm if you know the chops and can mute chords well. Add the crunch and know what the guitar is doing and you can duplicate it. It's much easier if you have a low E extended E9th or U-12. Few steel players attempt to perfect it.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 20 Jun 2021 4:23 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| One thing a pedal steel is NOT capable of doing better than a standard guitar is producing a solid rock rhythm backup. |
That really depends on the copedent, in my opinion. It's difficult on E9th, but fairly easy on the Sacred Steel E7th.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 20 Jun 2021 8:19 pm
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There are 7th chords everywhere on the E9th. A lot of rock rhythm is 6th tone's bent to 7th and 3rds bent to 4th. If you work from the 7th positions and 9th chords, you can find the rock rhythm. 13th's fit also. It's a matter of technique, but have to think outside of the country mode.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2021 8:01 am
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| Some things that are very easy on guitar are very hard on steel, and vice versa. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2021 3:01 pm
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What songs are you guys talking about?
I can add a lil distortion and kick off the intro vamp for Keep Your Hands To Yourself on Universal strings 11,10,9, going off on the AB pedals and adding the D-string equivalent... and take a distortion slide solo.
But I don't really want to have to kick off Johnny B. Goode ala Chuck Berry on Pedal Steel (it sounds better on guitar). |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2021 3:56 pm
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| I would go to regular guitar for all of those, but most of those bands have songs that you could play Steel on. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2021 4:28 pm
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| Absolutely, Pete. You could even attempt the intros for Brown Sugar (which lays out pretty well on E9), Panama, etc. on steel, but it wouldn’t be as kickbutt. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2021 4:40 pm
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| AC/DC's You Shook Me All Night Long has a basic AB pedal Power Chord Intro. But again, the original is guitar so, hard to get that out of mind. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 21 Jun 2021 7:56 pm
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Yes, very good palm muting and lots of crunch. Dialing in the proper tone is challenging.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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chuck lemasters
From:
Jacksonburg, WV
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 5:10 am
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| I’m with Fred on this...you might fake some of those, and many other R&R tunes on steel, but it would be very hard to capture the groove...and that is their essence. I would never attempt them on steel, would pull out the six string guitar. I believe I read a quote from Buddy Emmons at one time, something along the line that there is some music that the steel guitar is not suited for....IMHO, not all R&R, but quite a bit. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 6:31 am
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(Even a simple "Chuck Berry rhythm" befuddles most pedal steelers!  )
From my point of view, most of that stuff's simple I-IV closed chords, and it's not very hard to replicate it very closely. Probably wouldn't fool any lead player, but 90% of the listeners wouldn't know any better...or care! The "groove" that some speak of is mostly in the muting and timing (and that ubiquitous "crunch"). I've played in bands that did about 60-40 country and rock mix, and we always had a lead guitar. That meant that during rock songs I could either sit on my hands (like most pedal steelers here would do), or just get in there and rock with them. My goal was always the same...when the lead player dropped his rhythm to do lead stuff, I'd come in and try to replicate his rhythm chops...and I got fairly good at it.
I think that what most call "limitations" of the instrument are just mental blocks, or the lack of putting in the necessary time to learn to play it in a different way than most approach it. These are a couple of the old rock songs I cajoled our band to cover:
(WARNING! - "Way To Survive" addicts should not view!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xoke1wUwEXY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OhY4ipNbPY |
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chuck lemasters
From:
Jacksonburg, WV
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 8:14 am
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For fifteen years I played with a variety band, fifties, sixties, seventies, and a few newer pop tunes, a few swing standards, very few real country songs. I played steel maybe 30-40% of the time, six string the rest. I tried to use the steel guitar as much as possible, simply to promote the instrument and because I love the sound. If the band leader called an Allman Bros. tune, I played slide on the six string rather than the steel. I could have done that on steel, but the six string, with weaker pickups, through a tube rectified twenty or forty watt amp sounded closer to me than my steel through a high powered amp, even with a stomp box. I covered organ parts with the steel, played it on ballads and Americana stuff. But intricate rhythms are just easier on six string. Mark Knopfler plays with bare fingers, but strums rhythms by brushing with his nails. I guess you can do that with the steel, pick-less, if you watch out for the chromatic strings..  . A better player than I am might do a convincing job playing rock with a pedal steel guitar, but I have yet to hear one that sold me on the idea to the point that I am willing to devote a lot of time to it. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 10:54 am
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| Honky Tonk Women by The Rolling Stones is an example of a song where the Pedal Steel can replace the Lead Guitar no problem. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 11:20 am
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Those are great examples of how it can possibly be done, Mike. Complete with attitude and outstanding rock n roll singing! It’s also worth mentioning that this kind of playing was more or less your starting point, rather than something you struggled to work in to a pre-existing style.
Scuse me while I go eat my hat. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 11:37 am
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| Yes great playing Mike! |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 12:44 pm
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Top stuff Mike! Perfect example of the blocking/muting and crunch I had mentioned. Add the tone and you're in. Around my area, we had to play and still have to play classic rock standards along with country to satisfy the bar scene. I had to learn both to fit in. When a lead player dropped the rhythm to play a lead, I had to pick up the rhythm. Also play some slide. Then jump back to a Johnny Bush tune. 
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Michael Sawyer
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 3:17 pm
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| Dennis Detweiler wrote: |
| Around my area, we had to play and still have to play classic rock standards along with country to satisfy the bar scene. I had to learn both to fit in. When a lead player dropped the rhythm to play a lead, I had to pick up the rhythm. |
It has been the same for me.
I have found it to be a challenge on some songs;
To hear pros on here saying it takes some work,makes me feel better...and i will admit that when we play "Shooting Star"(Bad Co.) I sound country,even with a TS9.But it seems to fit ok... |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 3:58 pm
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Just like Flex Seal. Gotta fill in the cracks.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Jeff Peterson
From:
Nashville, TN USA
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Posted 25 Jun 2021 5:33 pm
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| Kinda' can't believe this has been up so long..really like this kind of idea/theory swap. Mike pulled up a great(for me) memory from a gig at the Greek Theater in L.A. with Clint Black..(just put in so you know the band). Edgar Winter sat in with us on this show and, sure enough, we had to play both Rock and Roll Hoochie Too, and Frankenstein. It was a blast, and, as expected EVERYONE thought I was not needed to play, including Edgar. I did not hold back and hit him with not only the rhythm part, but the lead/rhythm phrases...I remembered the parts from when I was with a southern-rock Houston based band in Texas named 'Fat Cat'. Edgar was the one who said, 'that works great..that's a steel?! Needless to say, I was thrilled to play with him live. Later in catering I filled him in on all the times I played with Johnny in Texas and, (I couldn't believe it), he said..'oh!, you're that guy'! I fell off my seat and he was so gracious and nice to me, we talked for an hour...mainly about how Johnny would bring his mom to the club, buy her a tall vodka, and sit in with the band..and songs, of course. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2021 7:57 am
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| That’s a great story, Jeff! |
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Chris Bauer
From:
Nashville, TN USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2021 9:10 am
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At the risk of sounding simplistic...
We have the same notes on steel as there are on a guitar.
Find the notes you need and then work on finding the tones and attack you need.
Might it be really hard to do well? Sure. But then so, at first, is learning how to play traditional steel parts really well. |
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