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Topic: Actually playing rock on pedal steel. |
Jeff Peterson
From:
Nashville, TN USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2020 12:38 pm |
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I think I know beforehand, this is maybe poking the hornets nest, but I'll start by saying, playing ANY kind of rock song is way more than just hitting your fuzz button.
This is another 'thorn in my side' that has bothered me for decades. I'll leave a lot of opinions of sound alone by saying I can break it down to just a few points sticking to just the steel guitar.
Number 1 is phrasing..you think like a steel player so you play everything like one.(NOT a bad thing, just not suited to rock and roll or just rock.)
Number 2 is attack..almost never have I heard a steel player that seems to have considered this extremely important facet of rock playing.
Number 3 is volume pedal...get off the dang thing!!! You should be able to play without working that pedal like you're playing Tammy Wynette.
Number 4 is sound/tone...try to THINK like David Lindley, Dwayne Allman, Jeff Beck, etc. ad nauseam.
You don't need to have a vintage lap steel to play rock..guitar players do that 'cause they think it's cool! It's a whole different mind-set.
Let me just put this out and see if anyone is interested in discussing this..it's an important subject for me having played so much in the rock genre, and am sincerely grateful for having that avenue bringing me to the dance. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2020 12:56 pm
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I would rephrase number 1 as:
you think like a country steel player so you play everything like one
You have to think like a steel player to play the instrument. Thinking steel involves knowing how to find your scales and chords and arrange them into music, as appropriate to the song and genre. Thinking steel does not automatically make you think country licks. It seems to me that putting country licks into songs where they don't belong is what you really meant.
I'm sure that Greg Leisz, B.J. Cole, Buddy Cage, and Robert Randolph all think like a steel player. 
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 4 Sep 2020 1:03 pm
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Way to shred on that steel Mike! 
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Mark |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2020 1:14 pm
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| Ha, I actually bought a lap steel because I had trouble getting a convincing rock tone out of my steel... and because it allowed me to load and unload all my gear in one trip to my vehicle. |
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Jeff Peterson
From:
Nashville, TN USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2020 2:02 pm
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Ah bOb, ever the crispiest cracker in the box! Probably a different subject, but yes, when I said steel players I kinda' took for granted country was the reference. But I've heard steel players who think of their playing not totally country playing what they considered rock..and I mean covers, not original material, that really were not in the pocket rock-wise. Now of course the disclaimer...I, like many, am expressing an opinion, not slamming every steel player out there, but what I've heard is not rock in any sense, again, just stomping the pedal and hoping for the best. I hear so much from players about all the 'heart' and 'soul' put into great country players, and so little about the few players who demonstrate the same-just not in the same genre..and not just rock, but that's what I'm talking about at this time.
I think the couple of most important things to consider playing solid rock on steel are the two I mentioned in the starting post. Phrasing and attack..next comes a realistic tone. We as steel players have NOTHING on guitar players in the search for the best tone for themselves...yeah, we go through a lot of gear, but not like those fools!..lol. And what happens?..Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, Jimi Hendrix, Bian May, etc., with not too much more than a guitar and amp make magic for generations. None of these guys used more than an overdrive of some kind, treble booster, or an early time-based pedal. They made it through an amp, we usually can't, so pedals are indispensable. Tone for us seems a whole different animal because it came from early times and country. I spoke with Pete Kleinow about this years ago, and he said f**** that!..I'm not gonna carry more crap around for a quarter of the set list! That's why he played the stomp box stuck on his Fender that sometimes worked...or not. Is it worth it to work on a good rock tone for a steel player?..or just stomp the lil izzy and sound like inna gadda da vida? Interesting though, isn't it? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2020 3:40 pm
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When I was in a rock band, I used a lot of effects pedals to get the right tone for every song on the list. When I was in a country band, I used a lot of effects pedals to get the right tone for every song on the list. When I was is a western swing band, I used a volume pedal and a sometimes delay pedal.
The crucial thing is playing appropriate musical parts for the genre. Tone is secondary. And I agree about taking your foot off the volume pedal sometimes. You really only need it in rock when you're covering organ parts.
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Kevin Fix
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2020 4:51 pm
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| I remember those days back in the 90's. If someone requested something like ZZ Top the lead player and I would "Burn It Up". People could not believe a Pedal Steel could sound that good on Rock songs. I remember being hired by a band and the leader would tell me, "You only play on the slow country songs". That did not cut it with me. First rock, up tempo song they did, when I had a chance, I just had to slam in some Steel. It about blew their mind when they heard it. After that they had me play something on every song they did. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 4 Sep 2020 7:50 pm
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I would definitely call myself a rock player before anything else, though I have a strong penchant for jazz and fusion. I spent a lot of time trying to learn to play steel correctly technique wise by listening to country, western swing, Hawaiian, but once I felt comfortable enough with my chops it was time to get back to my wheelhouse. Many years of playing guitar professionally groomed me for this.
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http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 5 Sep 2020 3:39 am
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To go back to the original post, are we talking pedal steel only - or non pedal/lap as well?
Think like David Lindley or Duane (not Dwayne!) Allman, and you don’t need a vintage lap steel to get the sound - this might be a little confusing to the reader.
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Mark
Last edited by Mark Eaton on 5 Sep 2020 4:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Don Poland
From:
Hanover, PA.
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Mike Holder
From:
Alabama! Home of the great “Don Helms” & his singer “Hank Williams”!
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Posted 5 Sep 2020 5:28 am
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I think many players are already doing this very well. Guido sounds great, Robert Randolph is exceptional in all aspects from originality to being an upfront artist also! Paul Franklin & Mike Smith both have several examples to draw from. Eddy Dunlap has covered Kid Charlamange. Travis Toy’s latest CD will scare you with his performance and musicianship! I think lap steel or pedal steel both qualify each other because they evolved which gives credence to Jerry Douglas, Freddie Roulette, Rob Ikes etc. Many players on the non pedal section are really opening roads with a lap steel. Your last post suggested players “ find their own voice” this time you suggest they think like Duane Allman, Jeff Beck, Ry Cooder, Sonny Landreth, Butch Trucks, George Harrison, Lowell George etc. all amazing players!! Personally I think lots of players are moving the goal post especially since there isn’t even an existing music business at the moment and the ones that just want to play Mansion on the hill like Buddy are just fine with me too. It’s a beautiful instrument no matter what you can get out of it, I’m glad they try and love it just because.
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I thought Nashville was the roughest, but I know I’ve said the same about them all.
I received my education, drivin through the Nation listenin to Paul!.. ( Franklin that is! ) |
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Bob Womack
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 5 Sep 2020 5:53 am
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This is an interesting subject to me because I came across to lap steel from Rock. I learned bottleneck by listening to Duane Allman and Joe Walsh back in the early '70s. I first heard lap steel in Rock from Steve Howe of YES and Ted Turner of Wishbone Ash and they were the ones who inspired me to get my hands on my first lap steel back in the '70s. It was a horrible little Dickerson/Magnatone that had spent too many years hanging in a pawn shop window. The mother-of-toilet-seat on this guitar shattered, taking with it the fingerboard decal, and that was that.
Later, David Gilmour inspired me to try again so I picked up a modern Gretsch G5715 and began using it for recording sessions. You can hear me playing the Gretsch in this recording I engineered and co-produced on a 2009 European progressive album, HERE. I played the three lap steel solos and the Strat/Leslie interlude in that song. Towards the end of the project the executive producer of the album flew in to listen to our work. When he heard my guitar overdubs he became excited and said, "That song just got promoted to first on the album and the first single release." Obviously I was proud.
Another example of my work on lap steel on a soundtrack I produced for a story about the Underground Railroad is HERE.
By the way, I did recently pick up a Rick B from another forum member because I wanted the more mellow, sustained sound with the more moderate attack that it offered over the typical Fender-ish and Valco-ish guitars. I saw David Gilmour's multi-instrumentalist, Jon Carin, play a Rick BD on a concert video and the mellow sound attracted my interest.
By the way, Jeff Baxter, formerly of Steely Dan and the Doobie Brothers, was also an influence on me, though he played pedal steel in Rock! You can hear one of his excellent Rock pedal steel solos at 1:37, HERE.
Bob
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THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (My Little Website) |
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Jeff Peterson
From:
Nashville, TN USA
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Posted 5 Sep 2020 6:10 am
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I never said 'think like anyone', more like listen to tone, attack, etc. Of course we listen to others to learn and TRY to develop what we hear in our heads for our own sound/performance. Inroads for steel into rock was started decades ago by the names I mentioned, I'm just saying I hear very few steel players hit the mark when they play rock. It doesn't have to be on a non-pedal. I surely did not play steel guitar in all its forms, acoustic, lap, resonator for 50 years because I don't also love listening to it...all of it.
Playing contemporary country music IS playing in a rock band, it's one fo the few genres that you can play a clean steel part next to several distorted guitars..classic rock is just different...fun though! |
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Mike Holder
From:
Alabama! Home of the great “Don Helms” & his singer “Hank Williams”!
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Posted 5 Sep 2020 6:39 am
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I draw your attention to your post, point #4 ( try to think like ...etc! ) I feel and have always felt you are best served when you can analyze your mentors approach to music , learn it to see why or how they chose that mode then as Jay Dee said in your last post “ make it your own” which is the hard part as we all know.
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I thought Nashville was the roughest, but I know I’ve said the same about them all.
I received my education, drivin through the Nation listenin to Paul!.. ( Franklin that is! ) |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 11:49 pm
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| Jeff Peterson wrote: |
Number 1 is phrasing..you think like a steel player so you play everything like one.(NOT a bad thing, just not suited to rock and roll or just rock.)
Number 2 is attack..almost never have I heard a steel player that seems to have considered this extremely important facet of rock playing.
Number 3 is volume pedal...get off the dang thing!!! You should be able to play without working that pedal like you're playing Tammy Wynette.
Number 4 is sound/tone... |
Great analysis on what makes effective rock playing on the steel guitar. I find your Number 4 (Attack) to be the most important when playing rock steel. Unfortunately, the steel guitar is not ideal for a very aggressive attack because the harder your attack is, the more your intonation will suffer, making you sound more out of tune. Effective, in tune steel playing requires a very light feather-touch picking approach for best intonation and tone. That is why even pro steel players can sound a bit wimpy (weak attack) when playing rock on the steel next to a rock 6-string player.
The most authentic rock playing I've heard from pedal-steelers is that from the Sacred Steel style, including Dan Tyack (forum member here) and Robert Randolph, as well as others. Their more open, modified E9 tuning requires fewer precise grips which allows them to pick/strum with a more aggressive attack and abandon.
| Jeff Peterson wrote: |
| ...playing ANY kind of rock song is way more than just hitting your fuzz button. |
THIS! "Rock" is more of drum/bass beat thing than simply overdriven guitars. Add a fuzz guitar to a song and all of a sudden it becomes "rock" 
I am fascinated with thinking how to incorporate clean and natural pedal steel tones to rock songs, without making it sound too country...Something different than the standard "over-driven steel playing single note pentatonic lines" approach. But, the problem with not using overdrive is that your clean guitar will be buried in the noise of other overdriven 6-string guitars, which rock music usually has a lot of. |
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Bobby Hearn
From:
Henrietta, Tx
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 6:37 am
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| Rock is for kids and grownup dope smoking hippies. 😃 |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 6:51 am
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| Quote: |
| ...But, the problem with not using overdrive is that your clean guitar will be buried in the noise of other overdriven 6-string guitars, which rock music usually has a lot of. |
Understatement of the year?  'Course, the same could probably be said now for most country guitarists, too. When's the last time you heard a Tele that wasn't overdriven? |
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Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 7:06 am
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If only playing steel in rock music were as easy as making generalizations about rock music...
Not all rock guitarist have heavy attack in their picking. Billy Gibbons for example uses 7 and 8 gauge string sets and someone like Yngwie could never build speed if he didn't have a light touch.
Not all rock guitarist play with lots of or even any overdrive. Mark Knopfler, Dickey Betts, Jerry Garcia, and Malcolm Young for example.
Not all rock music is noodling about on a pentatonic scale. And even when it is you better know when toove from major to minor pentatonic. If you try playing a pentatonic scale over anything descended from Richie Blackmore's playing you'll sound like a hack.
Rock guitar is not a monolith. Stop trying to play "rock" and start learning and playing the songs. |
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Jeff Peterson
From:
Nashville, TN USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 7:46 am
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| No matter how badly I might try to write my opinions on this, please don't interpret them as an attack on any genre or person. Continuing on a bit, I received some of the best tips of my playing career from two of my all-time heroes..Billy Gibbons and Lloyd Green. In their own ways, simply put, is to use tube amplifers, turn them up and use volume control to achieve a great attack and tone...I took this as gospel. Again, this worked for me along with easy on the lows and use the midrange to find your tone, 'cause that's where the sound you want is probably hiding..not in a bunch of highs and/or bass. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 9:38 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| When's the last time you heard a Tele that wasn't overdriven? |
Two days ago. 
Seriously, overdrive a Tele? That's an ugly sound, IMHO. A Strat or a Les Paul, sure, but Telecasters were designed to be bright and clean, Bakersfield style.
It's really hard to use a distorted steel sound in a band with that also has a distorted guitar. The tone balance is really tricky. For generic rock, I usually use just a bit of overdrive and a darker tone. If I'm on E9th, I avoid the 3rd string altogether. The volume pedal seems unnatural. I set it fairly low, take my foot off of it and pick harder.
If there's no keyboard in the band, I use a rotating effect, keep the volume pedal active, and comp organ parts.
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Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 10:31 am
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I used to live a short block away from Robbin Ford, but I never had the courage to walk over and to his house and introduce myself.
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Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 11:23 am
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Keith Richards, Jimmy Page, Roy Buchanan, Danny Gatton, Steve Morse, Albert Collins...The list of A-Team Tele’s of Rock and Blues is not short.
Even in my dawning stage of playing pedal steel, I enjoy rockin out on it. A separate preamp setting allows me to floor the volume pedal and get the full OD effect, which is actually set pretty low. Speaking of attack, I use fingerpicks for clean stuff, but they come off for single-note rockin Blues. Better for muting and I just get a better feel. Sorry, no audio examples to embarrass myself with at this point...  |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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