Using Paypal For Forum Purchases

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Just a reminder to all present that if you use PayPal to purchase goods here on the forum DO NOT use the "Friends and Family" option to send your money, no matter how sweetly the seller asks you to do so. While the usual rap will be that it saves them money, the actual truth of the matter is that it saves them from PayPal's buyer protection policies, and you will have no recourse whatsever if the deal goes sour.

In this context "Friends and Family" ultimately translates to "scoundrels and thieves." Buyer beware! One might have thought this would be a section "sticky" by now.

Jim Saunders · From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A.

Dave, I quite agree. I don't like cheating in any "innocent form". Back in the day, I wouldn't let my kids lie about their age to get in a movie cheaper. I taught them their integrity was worth more than 50 cents. Paypal is doing a service and they deserve to be paid their small fee. Likewise, be sure to include your donation to B0b for any sales.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Jim Saunders what you said! You can't buy integrity.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I've sold items both ways. Its the buyers option.

I have never cheated anyone. Everything I've sold is as described and many times better. I ship out same or next day after payment and always send tracking data. My prices are low - "I don't have anything gold plated". There may be some sellers that are not on the up and up, but its not me.
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Eric Dahlhoff · From: Point Arena, California

Sometimes I offer to split the fee with a buyer. PayPal is a service & I don't mind paying for it.
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Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

I agree, Eric, that is really the fairest option if both parties are willing.

forrest klott · From: Grand Rapids Mi USA

FWIW I donâ€™t think Iâ€™ve ever had anyone turn me down I when Iâ€™ve offered to pay the fees after they initially request friends and family.

Jim Saunders · From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A.

I usually just offer to pay the fee. Usually no more than $3.00. No big deal and I've kept my honor.

Al Miller · From: Waxahachie Texas

YEA BROTHER IM FEELING EVERY WORD OF THIS POST !!
I Recently purchased a very expensive steel from here & I got Raped!! I have no recourse with pay pal cause the guy ask for friends and family to waive the fees ..
this is a very small community and in my case this feller will pay for his dishonesty in the long run ! I could have bought a turd knowing I was going to have to put more money in it for several hundred dollars less than I paid ... as well I bet he didn't even send a donation to this forum for allowing him to be able to mislead me into a sale ..
its all through life in every aspect of it these days so we shouldn't be surprised when some clown pulls this crap .
BOO
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Jim Saunders · From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A.

Dave, I brought up this subject in an earlier post and got quite a few favorable responses. But, it's good to air the subject again. A good topic to ponder.

Dave Meis · From: Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA

I've only bought 2 items here where they asked for F&F, and I just paid the fee by sending them the difference so they got their asking price. I did it for my own protection.
A worker is worthy of their hire..unless you mail a personal check, you're going to pay a percentage.

Jeremy Threlfall · From: now in Western Australia

I'm with Dave. I'm happy to pay the extra 3 per cent to get buyer protection (even for damage in transit)

I'm in Australia, and I buy a lot of stuff from the 'states, so its important to me
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Garry Vanderlinde · From: CA

Don't you guys ever watch the Judge Judy show? If you did, you would never trust Friends and Family.
Laughing

Asa Brosius · Posted 10 Aug 2020 3:40 am

The friends and fam option has been easy for me, as a buyer and seller- the problem you're describing isn't in the payment method- seems like the problem is verifying the 'friend' part of the equation. Sending personal or cashier's checks through mail has been the standard for decades before.
I see no virtue in participating in paypal's fee structure. The company is an immensely successful billion plus dollar enterprise, with a public record of unethical business practices, and essentially a monopoly. The F&F option is provided by the company itself- no one's gaming any system here. Comparing their fees to Bob's request for a percentage of sales here on the forum doesn't really track for me. This is a unique place on the internet, and an extremely valuable service he provides for steel folks, and at this point in our late stage capitalism, the one time tiny fee to join is ridiculously generous.
All that said, if a buyer/seller has any doubt, obviously they should always proceed with and pay for as much caution/insurance as feels right to them. Getting burned is no fun- the one time I was objectively lied to involved Bobbe Seymour- he was so loved by 'the community' my %100 verifiable complaints fell on deaf ears.

Mike DiAlesandro · From: Kent, Ohio

Perhaps bOb should start a new section "Gripes", in the Classified Ads section?

I feel that this thread is just a continuation (with a different twist) of the the earlier thread Dave started about his Emmons deal that bOb locked up.

Mike D

Johnie King · From: Tennessee, USA

Wow Asa I believe you missed your calling you could or still good be a successful lawyer.
Your post on pay pal is spot on!!!

Jon Jaffe · From: Austin, Texas

F&F has nothing to with bad deals. Good deals on the Forum are made by people who take their honesty seriosly. I suspect that less than 5% of deals are bad. And that has nothing to do with PayPal.

Rick Barnhart · From: Arizona, USA

It boils down to trust. By and large this community is full of people we can trust, but like any community, there are exceptions. Iâ€™ve sent out items several times, before receiving payment. After a while you sort of know who you can trust, and I simply donâ€™t do business with those I donâ€™t. Iâ€™ve yet to be burned.

Using F&F is tantamount to opting out of insurance. If F&F is a hard requirement of the seller, perhaps it should give you pause.
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Andrew Wright · From: Indiana, USA

Since PayPal's policy change, the fees are not refunded even if the item is returned.

So while I do tend to prefer avoiding F&F, expecting a trial period on a $5000 steel guitar followed by a full refund if you decide "it's just not for you" isn't feasible unless the purchase was via F&F.

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

I always requested the friends and family option because I was unaware that it didnâ€™t cover any problems. I will no longer request that option if I sell anything on the forum. Iâ€™ve never had a problem either buying or selling but I donâ€™t mind paying a small fee or splitting it with the buyer or whatever for some amount of protection. I like PayPal even though I do understand itâ€™s a corrupt and abusive system. But almost everything is so we just have to use it with eyes open. I certainly donâ€™t like the idea of sending a money order or a check through the mail which is what you had to do back in the Jurassic period.
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Jim Saunders · From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A.

I don't think being successful gives one the right to steal from them, even though Robin Hood became successful for just that. But, he was a fictional character and his last name was Hood. If we applied that logic, I could go shoplifting at Kroger, my successful grocery store.

Asa Brosius · Posted 10 Aug 2020 7:09 am

Kroger doesn't offer a friends and family checkout. paypal does. Both buyer and seller agree to use the fully legal service or not. If 'rights' are a concern, take a look at paypal's business history, litigation record, and the terms of service disclosure we've agreed to.

Jim Saunders · From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A.

Think of the irony: the seller's ad, says, "payment by postal money order, cashier's check, or Paypal, friends and family"

Leo Grassl · From: Madison TN

Asa nailed it. And as another member pointed out this is a community and it is made up mostly of good honest people. Iâ€™m not going to stop trusting people as a rule because 2 percent of the folks on here are out to get the big end of an ugly deal. Oh and PayPalâ€™s fee is NOT â€œ$3.00â€. Itâ€™s 2.9 percent of the amount of money being paid. It adds up and gets very expensive. If you donâ€™t know your way around the forum and donâ€™t know who to trust than by all means protect yourself but I think it is unfair to propose that using F&F is inappropriate under all circumstances.

Dave you got burned recently by a member here who refused to make it right and that is a shame. For that I am sorry but thatâ€™s Just one bad apple.

J R Rose · From: Keota, Oklahoma, USA

I agree with Kevin Maul in the above post. I too did not know if you use F&F it exempts you from a recourse. I will be glad to pay the fee from now on. Is a few dollars gong to make or break you on say a $3000 guitar. Thankfully, I have never had a problem other than being HACKED by a THIEF. They hacked my pay-pal account but my Discover Card security stopped payment so I did not lose my $2500. But it was SCARY. And this forum is the GREATEST thing since Cheerios. b0b has and does us all a great SERVICE. Send him a Christmas Bonus just for being b0b. Thanks, J.R.
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