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Post new topic What's the difference between C6 vs C6/A7
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Author Topic:  What's the difference between C6 vs C6/A7
Francisco Castillo

 

From:
Easter Island, Chile
Post  Posted 18 Jul 2020 9:10 pm    
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I'm doing furhter study in Jerry Byrd's songs, mostly C6 arrangements.
He usually plays with C sharp as lowest string in 6 strings.

My question,
why?
what changes?
what is that i don't see?

is this half tone really significant?

Thanks a lot friends.
Iorana.
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Paul McEvoy

 

From:
Baltimore, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 2:54 am    
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I'm not super qualified to answer this here but the C# gives a tritone with the E in the open position. That tritone gives you access to dominant 7th chords without slanting (and you can get the full dom 7th chord A C# E G).

So it sort of sets up two different pathways, you can either be in the 6th pathway or the dom 7th pathway. So if you wanted to go V7-I you could play your A7 chord in open position to your D6 chord on the 2nd fret.

That V7-I relationship is a huge part of a lot of different musics.

Again, I'm the least qualified person to answer here so take it all with a grain of salt.


Last edited by Paul McEvoy on 19 Jul 2020 7:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bill Groner


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QUAKERTOWN, PA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 3:03 am    
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Paul, that is untrue! I am way less qualified than you.......in fact I don't have a clue what you are talking about! Confused
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Steve Marinak


From:
Ocean Ridge, Florida, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 3:33 am    
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I like Bill's response.

Paul that was a very good explanation.
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Steve Marinak


From:
Ocean Ridge, Florida, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 3:35 am    
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I too have a bunch of those transcriptions from Jerry Byrd. The funny thing is most of the time he doesn't ever use the 6th string, which is why it's a little puzzling. I learn faster by example.
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Bill Groner


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QUAKERTOWN, PA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 3:36 am    
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So Steve, you are saying you understood it? Winking
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Steve Marinak


From:
Ocean Ridge, Florida, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 3:42 am    
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Bill, I'm gonna read it four more times! LOL Or print it out and try to let it sink in. I do understand the concept of the V7-1 resolve. But I can't picture which strings I would be using at this time. I think if I read it again a couple more times, I'll learn something useful! Laughing
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David M Brown


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 4:49 am    
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Paul McEvoy wrote:
I'm not super qualified to answer this here but the C# gives a tritone with the E in the open position. That tritone gives you access to dominant 7th chords without slanting (and you can get the full dom 7th chord A C# E G).


The C# gives a tritone with the G pitch, not the E.

Effectively you have an A7 chord and a C6 (Am7 in inversion) thus making 7th chords much easier. The other 5 strings work just like C6.
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Rob Fenton

 

From:
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 6:25 am    
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The C# gives you a diminished triad which is very useful.

On the face of it, it looks like you've just got an A7 chord, but if you add one string further up you actually have an A7(#9) chord.

if you only play the C#, E, and G, you have 3, 5, 7 of A7
but...
Those same strings are also
b9, 3, 5 of C7(b9)
7, b9, 3 of Eb7(b9)
5, 7, b9 of F#7(b9)

You can play these notes every three frets over any of those chords.

It's also the triad at the base of C#m7(b5), which is the 2 chord for a minor 2-5 into Bm.
C#m7(b5) F#7(b9) Bm7
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Paul McEvoy

 

From:
Baltimore, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 6:53 am    
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David M Brown wrote:
Paul McEvoy wrote:
I'm not super qualified to answer this here but the C# gives a tritone with the E in the open position. That tritone gives you access to dominant 7th chords without slanting (and you can get the full dom 7th chord A C# E G).


The C# gives a tritone with the G pitch, not the E.

Effectively you have an A7 chord and a C6 (Am7 in inversion) thus making 7th chords much easier. The other 5 strings work just like C6.


See! I told you I didn't know what I'm talking about.

JK yes, thanks for correcting.
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Paul McEvoy

 

From:
Baltimore, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 7:06 am    
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Steve Marinak wrote:
Bill, I'm gonna read it four more times! LOL Or print it out and try to let it sink in. I do understand the concept of the V7-1 resolve. But I can't picture which strings I would be using at this time. I think if I read it again a couple more times, I'll learn something useful! Laughing


I haven't been practicing steel much in a while, but when I was doing it, I was thinking it as having two different guitars on top of each other. One was the A7 Guitar and one was the D6 guitar. The A7 guitar was based on that open A7 chord, so all the other chords would be built on that shape. And the D6 guitar was based on the open C6 shape, but 2 frets up.

Because the A7 and C6 you get in open position don't have much to do with each other harmonically (even though they share a lot of the same notes), it was helpful for me to think of the D6 chord on the 2nd fret relating to the open A7 chord, so you could get V7-I (in the key of D).

And then of course transposing that to all the other keys, but still having that same relationship (Dominant 7th chord is 2 frets down from the tonic I chord).

Now in straight C6 you'd have an A minor 7th chord instead, which has a lot more to do with C6 (relative minor), so you wouldn't have to think that way (two different guitars) but you wouldn't have that dominant V7 sound without slanting. You could only get the V triad (no 7th) by playing A C# E on the 9th fret.
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Mike A Holland


From:
United Kingdom
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 7:24 am    
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFSA3ZzD5G8&list=FLeKJIHW_2Ek7WmtbccSJ-vw
This video by Wayne Tanner gives the best answer ......plus amazing tone and expressive playing!
Mike!
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Walter Webb

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 10:14 am    
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Wow... that Mike Tanner is awesome... what an excellent touch and tone he has.
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Francisco Castillo

 

From:
Easter Island, Chile
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 10:23 am     Thanks
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Thans a lot for the answers, the tunning really make sense now.

lower 4 strings dom7th
upper 5 strings 6th chord


V7 - I chords are just 2 frets apart


thanks guys, really great help
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Nic Neufeld


From:
Kansas City, Missouri
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 5:42 pm    
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Yep, its a split tuning. Like B11...which I think of as A6 on top, B9 on the bottom. It seems a pretty common format...a sixth tuning on the top for melodies and major/minor chords, and a dominant 7 / 9 on the bottom for adding in those chords...
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Jim Fogarty


From:
Phila, Pa, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 10:57 pm    
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Even if you’re not thinking chordally, having the C# (the 6th) below the E gives you some nice major pentatonic lines and riffs.

Conversely, if C# is your root, the E above it is minor 3rd........and adding the G gives you a cool b5..........all good for bluesy lines.
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Paul McEvoy

 

From:
Baltimore, USA
Post  Posted 20 Jul 2020 3:36 am    
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Make sure you check out the Kayton Roberts video at the end of the other thread above "Chris Scruggs tuning", he's bending the open C to meet the C# of the A7 chord and it sounds really cool
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Francisco Castillo

 

From:
Easter Island, Chile
Post  Posted 22 Jul 2020 5:39 pm    
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thanks again for all your inputs.
Maururu rahi.
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Paul McEvoy

 

From:
Baltimore, USA
Post  Posted 30 Jul 2020 7:21 am    
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Hey All

I finally got my 8 string strung up with Jules Ah See C13 (maybe there needs to be an abreviation for that).

I haven't been practicing it nearly as much as thinking about it (not very effective way to practice), but I was just thinking if you took the Jules AH See 6th string C and brought it to C# (so you'd have E C A G E C# bb c top to bottom) you'd get a full Bb diminished 7th chord on the bottom (Bb Db E G). You'd also have C13b9 with the open strings. Not sure how useful that is but I think it is cool.

Is it cool? I just need to play the thing. I am looking for things to play on it. I like Western Swing a lot, Hawaiian music doesn't grab me as much as I would like. I'm in love with this band Khruangbin and I think their music will translate well to lap steel (they even have psg with them sometimes).
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David M Brown


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 31 Jul 2020 5:46 am    
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Paul McEvoy wrote:
....I was just thinking if you took the Jules AH See 6th string C and brought it to C# (so you'd have E C A G E C# bb c top to bottom) you'd get a full Bb diminished 7th chord on the bottom
.....

I like Western Swing a lot, Hawaiian music doesn't grab me as much as I would like.


Perhaps you'd like the A6 tuning better for Western Swing.

As for having a full dim7 chord. Billy Hew Len used to alter his A6 tuning as such:

from L-H

F# A C# E F# A C# E to

G Bb C# E F# A C# E

thus having a full dim 7 on the lower strings.
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Paul McEvoy

 

From:
Baltimore, USA
Post  Posted 31 Jul 2020 2:16 pm    
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I guess I can switch back and forth with the same string gauges? Why is A6 better for Western Swing specifically?
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David M Brown


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 1 Aug 2020 6:08 am    
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Paul McEvoy wrote:
I guess I can switch back and forth with the same string gauges? Why is A6 better for Western Swing specifically?


A6 is a common tuning for Western swing, along with several others like E13, etc.

Why?

That's a good question!

I'm not saying it's better, just that many Western swing players used A6 on at least one neck.

Yes, you can just raise the low strings on that A6 tuning, same gauge strings OK.
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