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Author Topic:  String 1 and 2 raise
Cody Coombs


From:
Washington, USA
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 12:47 am    
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There's a lot of cool licks I've been hearing that use this raise ( F# to G# and also the D# to E I believe ) my Mullen doesn't have that change my 1st string raises to a G so I usually just slide up on the first string , and to get some of the licks on that second string I just pull behind the bar . So What does it take to add that change to it ? Right now I have the standard 8 pedals and 4 levers , and where does it go best ? I think I would like to have that change added to it

A pedal raises 5,10 to C#
B pedal raises 3,6 to A
C pedal raises 4,5 to F# and C#

LKL raises Es to F
LKR lowers Es to Eb
RKL raises 1 to G , lowers 6 to F#
RKR lowers 2 to D/C# and 9 to C#

I think I have all that correct

Thank you , and the best to you all

Cody Coombs
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Cody Coombs


From:
Washington, USA
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 1:22 am    
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would it be a possibility to keep the same setup , but just add the raises to my RKL so I get the 1 and 2 raise , and still have the 6 string lowering ? maybe put a half stop to the 1st string to get the G ? I'm not sure how easy it is to add all of that on it , but to add the raises wouldn't I just put an extra rod for the 2nd string and get a shorter rod for the 1st string to pull farther ? Maybe by doing it that way it would save more space for additional levers down the road ? It might be wishful thinking

I apologize for all my questions lately , I appreciate all the help

Thanks
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Franklin

 

Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 2:03 am    
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Cody, Lowering the 6th string with the 1st and 2nd string raises creates a major interval conflict because 1&2 are meant to combine with the A&B pedals down...You will lose all of the A&B chordal and lick options.
Paul Franklin
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Charlie McDonald


From:
out of the blue
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 2:29 am    
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It might be possible to have a soft feel stop on RKL, where str. 1 reaches G and str. 2 begins its pull to E, as that leaves a half-step pull to G# and E.

It would not be possible to "get a shorter rod for the 1st string to pull farther." You would adjust the location of the rod ends by selecting
a bellcrank hole farther from the crank (for a farther pull) and selecting a changer hole for str. 2 that will tune the two pulls to full pitch together (timing the pulls).
You would need an additional bellcrank on the RKL crosshaft for str. 2. It wouldn't be desirable to pull str. 2 from the str. 1 crank, if that was your thought.

In line with what Paul said (and I agree), you could move the str. 6 crank if you want to see how the E/G# would work for you.
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Cody Coombs


From:
Washington, USA
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 2:55 am    
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Paul - I didn't think of that , so as my steel sits at the moment with the 1st raising a half tone and the 6th lowering a whole tone , is that causing conflict with the A and B pedals ?

Charlie - that makes more sense now , so basically I would run a separate chain for string 2 , and string 1 just move the ending of it to get the farther pull . They both would be playing off the same shaft for the RKL , just need to run them to their own spot in the end of the line if I'm understanding correctly

So the question now is how can I get the raises and not have the 6th lower on the same move , seems like I need to add your 4th pedal too then Paul !

Thank you guys for your help
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K Maul


From:
Upstate NY/Hobe Sound FL
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 6:29 am    
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You could change the 6 lower to a 7 raise F#-G# but some people wouldn’t like that.
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Kevin Maul: Asher, Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Dobro, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, Martin, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Webb, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing.
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Craig A Davidson


From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 6:32 am    
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Franklin wrote:
Cody, Lowering the 6th string with the 1st and 2nd string raises creates a major interval conflict because 1&2 are meant to combine with the A&B pedals down...You will lose all of the A&B chordal and lick options.
Paul Franklin


That makes sense Paul but I find it strange that so many builders have those 3 changes on the same knee. I constantly find myself avoiding that knee because of that. Time to play doctor on my guitar again.
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Charlie McDonald


From:
out of the blue
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 7:33 am    
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First you should check string one to make sure it rises to G# comfortably. It's possible that the crank and changer holes for string 2 would be the same as 1.
The tuning nut on str. 2 will sit out slightly from the finger flange, as it doesn't begin to activate the finger until str. 1 is at G.
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 7:51 am    
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K Maul wrote:
You could change the 6 lower to a 7 raise F#-G# but some people wouldn’t like that.

Just to elaborate on your point - I love having that change with the 1&2 raise, but it is on LKR. It is kind of a stiff pull. If it was on a RK it would probably make volume pedal control a little wonky for me.
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Steve Leal


From:
Laguna Niguel CA, USA
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 9:29 am    
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Hi Cody,

You could try it this way:

A pedal raises 5,10 to C#
B pedal raises 3,6 to A
C pedal raises 4,5 to F# and C#

LKL raises Es to F
LKR lowers Es to Eb
RKL lowers 2 to D/C#, lowers 6 to F#
RKR raise 1 to G#, raise 2 to E, and lower 9 to C#

I set up one of my guitars this way and like it. I put the 6th string lower rod on the highest available hole on the bell crank so that it activates after string 1 reaches a G note.

Stephen
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Cody Coombs


From:
Washington, USA
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 10:00 am    
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What all am I going to need to make this happen ? Am I gonna ned to order some
Rods and cranks and nylon tuning nuts?
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Steve Leal


From:
Laguna Niguel CA, USA
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 10:27 am    
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If you try it this way, all you will need is 1 extra rod With clip and tuning nut for the 2nd string pull. Use the same bell crank that will raise string 1. Here is a photo of my shared bell crank.


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Cody Coombs


From:
Washington, USA
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 11:16 am    
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So two questions , would It make things complicated and do I lose any movements if I kept the raising on the RKL and the lowering on the RKR ? and at that point would I need a shorter rod to get the 6th string to lower ?
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John De Maille


From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 11:56 am    
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Cody,
How often do you use your 6th string drop to F# ?
If it is not that important to you right now, you could use that bell crank and rod to raise string 2 to E and tighten the tuning nut for string 1 to make it a G#.
If you don't like that change, you can always reverse the procedure.
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Cody Coombs


From:
Washington, USA
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 12:16 pm    
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John - I don't think I use it much at all yet , would that be as simple as switching it over like that ? I had looked under the steel and saw that and was questioning if I could just drop the 6 lower for the time and use the stuff moved over for the 2 string ,

Since it's lowering on the 6th string I would need to put it in a different changing hole for the 2 string to do a raise ? (those are the spots the tuning nuts go if I'm thinking right)
Then find which hole on the crank part goes a half step ?
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John De Maille


From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 12:30 pm    
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On my bell crank, it's the closest hole to the cabinet bottom. On the changer finger, it's the second hole from the top. All you have to do is move the bell crank in line with the second string and reinstall the pull rod through the changer finger into the bell crank hole. Then it should just be a matter of tuning it with the tuning nut.
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Cody Coombs


From:
Washington, USA
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 2:37 pm    
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Thank you for your help that seems like it would be an easy swap , is there anything I need to watch out for or to keep in mind while doing that ?

And on another note , what all is lost when I take the 6 lower out ? I don't use it much to my knowledge, but would I be missing out on a lot to get these " wonder licks " with those raises ?
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Cody Coombs


From:
Washington, USA
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2020 6:08 pm    
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One last question , since that RKL is connected to my c6 neck is that going to throw the tension off of that one ?
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Franklin

 

Post  Posted 12 Apr 2020 2:03 am    
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Cody,

The first string raise creates a major 7th interval with A&B pedals down so you need the ability to hit string 6 with B pedal and the raised 1st to make that happen....There are so many beautiful bending licks this way...And none of those are available as you have it now.

Craig,
Those manufacturers don't understand how intervals form chords. Pedals down the "A" note is the root of the 4 chord...The F# to G# raise gives the major 7th interval. That major 7th interval does not exist in the pedals down position....So with it I can use all 4 chord groups and the licks they provide combining at will with a major 7th interval are endless.

Everyone stay safe!
Paul
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Craig A Davidson


From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2020 12:12 pm    
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Paul after changing to raising the F# to G# on string seven it makes perfect sense. It also eliminates that dissidence from lowering the G#. I think I am going to like it better.
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Greg Cutshaw


From:
Corry, PA, USA
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2020 2:43 pm    
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Cody here's a few examples that use string 6 with the 1st string whole tone raise. Maj 7th, 13th and many other possibilities exist with the 6th string open and with pedal B engaged. This first example also uses the 2nd string half tone raise.

Example 1:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab540.wma

Tab for above:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab540.pdf


More examples:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab8.wma

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab%20611%201st%20String.wma


New Example #3 - Here's another cool use as played at 1:45 into Gene Watson and Rhonda Vincent's new album (Your Money and My Good Looks) song also entitled "Your Sweet Love Ain't Around". It doesn't go into the flatted 5th but does use the 1st string F# to G# raise. Note the chord progression is from B to E to D so the last part of this riff is at the 3rd fret! 1st time through is normal speed, 2nd time is slower, 3rd time uses a slide into the 4th fret. You could easily add the flatted 5th move to this!:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/E9String7F%23ToG%23Tab3.mp3

Hank Thompson Style Ending:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/E9String7F%23ToG%23Tab4.mp3

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/E9String7F%23ToG%23Tab7.mp3

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/E9String7F%23ToG%23Tab8.mp3



Many more examples with tab here:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/E9%201st%202nd%20%207th%20String%20Raise%20Tab.html
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Jay Dee Maness

 

From:
North Hills, CA
Post  Posted 18 Apr 2020 7:34 pm     7th
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Raise the 7th string a whole step.
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Ron Funk

 

From:
Ballwin, Missouri
Post  Posted 18 Apr 2020 10:01 pm    
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Absolutely great to see Jay Dee posting on The Forum.
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dlayne


From:
OH
Post  Posted 19 Apr 2020 1:09 am     1 and 2 raise
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Guys I gotta say that Greg Cutshaw has alot of very useful tab & audio thats definitely worth checking out!
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Dan Layne
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Greg Cutshaw


From:
Corry, PA, USA
Post  Posted 19 Apr 2020 5:35 am    
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Thanks Dan and to all the others who have freely posted great ideas on here. My tab links above show a lot of 7th string whole tone raise uses as Jay Dee mentions. I think this change covers some of the ground that the 6th string whole tone lower offers but also opens a lot of other newer sounds. On most of my guitars I have the 1st, 2nd and 7th string raises on the same knee lever.
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