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Author Topic:  Instuments "disappearing" in recordings
Jack Stanton

 

From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
Post  Posted 30 Mar 2020 9:27 am    
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Disappearing is probably not the right term, but in my Corona downtime, I'm converting LP's to mp3's using audacity. While trying to convert Buck Ownes' Foolin' Around, I'm finding that during monitoring while recording the steel is loud and primarily in the right speaker ( definitely a stereo mix), but when listening to the Audacity track, the steel is "ghosted", barely audible. I tried recording in mono, the same thing..
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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Howard Parker


From:
Clarksburg,MD USA
Post  Posted 30 Mar 2020 2:21 pm    
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Can you "see" both the L & R channels in Audacity? Are they equal?

Sounds like you're missing a channel at the computer's input or possibly you are monitoring one channel.

I don't do Audacity but that's what I'd check in any DAW.

h
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Jack Stanton

 

From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
Post  Posted 30 Mar 2020 3:34 pm    
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Thanks, Howard. I can see both channels and they're equal. I'm monitoring them while recording and they sound fine, definitely stereo- I can hear the separation.
Maybe some kind of phase issue? I know when you record with multiple mics that's always a potential problem, but these are finished tracks. Plus I don't see any phase correction features on audacity..
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Howard Parker


From:
Clarksburg,MD USA
Post  Posted 30 Mar 2020 3:40 pm    
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I'd check to see if only one side is being "exported" or whatever Audacity calls it.

Curious..What do you hear if you play back the track in Audacity? Both sides?

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Howard Parker


From:
Clarksburg,MD USA
Post  Posted 30 Mar 2020 3:41 pm    
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I would not think that phase is an issue here.

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Jim Fogle


From:
North Carolina, Winston-Salem, USA
Post  Posted 30 Mar 2020 5:01 pm    
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Jack can you post a screen shot like the one below? A photo can be very helpful.



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Jack Stanton

 

From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
Post  Posted 31 Mar 2020 9:57 am    
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Jim,
Will do a little latter. Thanks
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Howard Parker


From:
Clarksburg,MD USA
Post  Posted 18 Apr 2020 1:32 pm    
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I don't suppose we will ever know.......

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Jim Fogle


From:
North Carolina, Winston-Salem, USA
Post  Posted 19 Apr 2020 6:03 am    
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Howard,

Perhaps not. Jack has likely moved on to other projects by this time.

My guess is the record groove containing the steel track has worn down enough that a good electrical signal is not going to the preamp.
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Jack Stanton

 

From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
Post  Posted 19 Apr 2020 12:02 pm    
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Sorry, guys. I'm actually still working through all this corona insanity, busier than ever… except for the lack of gigs. Anyway, Jim, when I do a recording the audacity screen looks exactly as the picture you posted. Both channels are there and equal and strong. It's a very strange phenomenon and only happens on certain records. The Buck Owens record I mentioned, and I remember experiencing it a while ago when I was transferring Bobby Bare's "the winner another losers". Buddy Emmons' wonderful steel guitar parts all disappeared, so I just ended up buying the cd. Doesn't happen enough to really be a problem, more of just an annoyance. I really believe it's not due to the my computer, interface, or audacity, but more about how the record was recorded and or mastered
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Jim Fogle


From:
North Carolina, Winston-Salem, USA
Post  Posted 19 Apr 2020 5:05 pm    
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Jack,

Thanks for the update. I'm glad you found a solution that works for you. Like you said if it's happening just with certain songs on specific records then the record is likely the issue.
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Tim Kowalski


From:
Illinois, USA
Post  Posted 20 Apr 2020 1:07 pm    
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A couple of ideas to try to isolate the cause:

1. Swap the left and right channel from your record player and see if anything changes.

2. Try saving the file as a .wav file. Compression to the mp3 format can really mess with some instruments in a recording. If you can increase the bitrate in the conversion, that sometimes helps.
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Jack Stanton

 

From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
Post  Posted 21 Apr 2020 8:05 pm    
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Thanks, Tim. I'll give that a try.
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Godfrey Arthur


From:
3rd Rock
Post  Posted 22 Apr 2020 8:35 pm    
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What do you have your turntable connected to before the computer? Do you have some sort of preamp?


Also some older recordings were not checked for mono when they were mixed. Something that should be done as out of phase stereo effects make the instrument disappear when collapsing to mono. But this might not be your problem.

Often times when trying to convert from analog audio devices to digital, one side of the recording ends up stronger than the other needing two separate channels one for left, one for right and a volume control on EACH to reduce one or increase the other. Like trying to sit on a balloon to pop it, you have to be at the right spot otherwise the balloon slips away, to use an ersatz analogy.
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Jack Stanton

 

From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
Post  Posted 23 Apr 2020 8:06 am    
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Godfrey,
I'm going from the turntable into a behringer interface with a USB out to the computer. I'm thinking t's probably
a phase problem.
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Godfrey Arthur


From:
3rd Rock
Post  Posted 23 Apr 2020 9:19 am    
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Jack Stanton wrote:
Godfrey,
I'm going from the turntable into a behringer interface with a USB out to the computer. I'm thinking t's probably
a phase problem.


What's the model on the Behringer device Jack?
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 23 Apr 2020 9:45 am    
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Okay, try this.
Split your stereo track into 2 mono tracks.
Select the entire wave in one of them.
Apply Effect/Invert to it.

That will flip the phase of the selected track.


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Jim Fogle


From:
North Carolina, Winston-Salem, USA
Post  Posted 23 Apr 2020 4:26 pm     No RIAA EQ?
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Perhaps the Behringer audio interface does not have built-in RIAA equalization. If the audio interface doesn't have inputs specifically labeled for turntable then it likely doesn't have the built-in equalization.

Audacity has a RIAA equalization preset setting on it's equalizer.

Select the track > Effect > Graphic EQ ... > Manage > Factory Presets > RIAA



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Godfrey Arthur


From:
3rd Rock
Post  Posted 24 Apr 2020 2:20 am     Re: No RIAA EQ?
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Jim Fogle wrote:
If the audio interface doesn't have inputs specifically labeled for turntable then it likely doesn't have the built-in equalization.


A turntable has a discreet preamping interface. Reason on a most amps for stereo hi-fi there's a dedicated turntable input apart from a CD or tape deck, radio tuner. All there is on a turntable is wires connected to the needle. There is no pre amplification.

I don't think it's an EQ problem off the bat. I know that even trying to convert cassette tapes to digital, a two-channel preamp section is needed to balance the mix.

Something like this is presumed made for turntable connect.



If a phasing issue is occurring the Behringer device may be the cause.

Audacity is pretty straight forward when presenting it a digital file.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 24 Apr 2020 8:28 am    
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Many modern turntables have a preamp with the RIAA curve built in. They aren't all that expensive, either.
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Jim Fogle


From:
North Carolina, Winston-Salem, USA
Post  Posted 24 Apr 2020 9:08 am    
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I don't think the problem is equalization either but then thought, what if it is equalization? It is a possibility not mentioned in the thread and there is a solution to add the equalization so I suggested it.

In many ways current turntables differ from the turntables I grew up with. Many current turntables have a built-in preamplifier with a line level output, or a built-in analog to digital convertor connected to a USB port. Then again Jack might be using the same turntable he used back in the sixties or seventies.

Hopefully Jack will update this thread and let us know.
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Remembering Harold Fogle (1945-1999) Brother - Pedal Steel Player
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2021 BiaB UltraPlus PAK
Cakewalk by Bandlab Computer DAW
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Jack Stanton

 

From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
Post  Posted 26 Apr 2020 10:10 am    
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Godfrey,
That's exactly what I'm using.
b0b, I'll give that a try.
Thanks, guys
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Godfrey Arthur


From:
3rd Rock
Post  Posted 26 Apr 2020 10:44 am    
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Jack Stanton wrote:
Godfrey,
That's exactly what I'm using.
b0b, I'll give that a try.
Thanks, guys


Jack, that model while ok for speech type recordings doesn't fare well with hi-fi music and tends to present a muddy response. It suffers from organization and timing of getting a mix to align itself to sound good to the ears.

If you diddle with EQ you might spend more time dragging the performance off the beaten path than it would to have a better unit to begin with.

If spending time to convert vinyl, doing a better job of it with a better converter would yield more pleasing results. Takes time, (real time each album) no copy-paste there. 10 albums=10 hours minimum of your day?

These converters are not created equal. Stereo separation and width will suffer making your vinyl sound betrayed altering the mix enough to be noticed.

Neutral

Something like the Rega seems to be a better budget converter for vinyl turntable conversion.





The price goes up for the "audiophile" level units.

It's a "get what you pay for" scenario. Cool
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Jack Stanton

 

From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
Post  Posted 30 Apr 2020 1:23 pm    
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Godfrey,
Yes! Time-consuming!
I might have to spring for the Rega, thanks.
Had another episode/ revelation last night. I was converting Roger Miller's Trip To The Country and Buddy Emmons steel was very muted, and the steel is pretty much why I bought that album. I tried switching the RCA jack going into the unit, and Voille" the steel was back- but the fiddle was gone...Smile, so that tells me it's almost certainly the unit.
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Godfrey Arthur


From:
3rd Rock
Post  Posted 30 Apr 2020 1:30 pm    
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Jack Stanton wrote:
Godfrey,
Yes! Time-consuming!
I might have to spring for the Rega, thanks.
Had another episode/ revelation last night. I was converting Roger Miller's Trip To The Country and Buddy Emmons steel was very muted, and the steel is pretty much why I bought that album. I tried switching the RCA jack going into the unit, and Voille" the steel was back- but the fiddle was gone...Smile, so that tells me it's almost certainly the unit.


Jack at least you came to some solution early in the game. Smile
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