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Topic: To music theory , or not to music theory ? |
Franklin
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Posted 21 Jan 2020 6:10 pm |
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Music is Math with Heart
Paul |
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Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2020 8:48 pm
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The little bit I know about music theory makes E9 so much fun as I discover the genius of it.
I know it sounds corny, but 10-string E9 is like a crazy steampunk music theory abacus. It never ceases to amaze me how it all adds up.
I can’t imagine what it’s like to have the mind and theory background to take it to Johnny Cox’s level with his 12-string D13 “theory guitar calculatorâ€
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
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Chris Grigsby
From:
Boulder, CO
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Posted 22 Jan 2020 11:58 am
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What are the best instructional materials for learning music theory for PSG? I always feel like I’m just getting bits and pieces, but nothing comprehensive or linear per se. So far I’ve tried Franklin e9 basics, Winnie Winston, RadyGuide.com, and Deluxe Pedal Steel Guitar Method. The latter seems to have helped the most, but I still feel like I’m lacking a linear education in music theory, if there even is such a thing. Really I’m
looking for something like Herb Steiner’s C6th guide but for e9.
-Chris
_________________
Mullen Discovery S10, Hilton VP, Kemper Profiler Head and Kabinet. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2020 12:23 pm Re: To music theory , or not to music theory ?
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| Cody Coombs wrote: |
If I could get some opinions on music theory
I know some of basic stuff theory , but I've been thinking about diving deeper into it and I was wondering how much of it would apply to the pedal steel ( e9th neck and the c6th neck ) for example when playing and practicing , thinking about theory and how it all works could the fretboard with all the pedals and levers be seen better ? I hope that makes sense that's the only way I can think of phrasing that question . I feel without the knowledge it's just playing what sounds right rather than knowing what it is about to played based on how it all works together .
I suppose my question is how beneficial would learning theory be ? If it could be of good use in learning and understanding , what areas should he focused on more than others , and if anyone could maybe place a small example of how one might apply music theory in a situation to the pedal steel that would be great ,
Thank you
Cody Coombs |
I didn't know it was even an option. Playing steel forced me to learn music theory. When you say "basic stuff", do you mean the different chords in a key, the pentatonic scale, and how to access their components up and down the neck? Or do you mean things like modes and substitute chords as well?
Steel guitar is primarily an accompanying instrument, so you at least have to know as much music theory to grasp the logic and flow of the songs you are providing accompaniment for. Or you don't - it's not hard to fool people... at first. 
| Jeff Harbour wrote: |
I would say definitely learn theory, but I caution you to NOT get lost in it. I wasted many years thinking too much about the mathematics, and not enough time actually listening. In the end, the more theory you know, the easier you will remember what works and what doesn't. But, never lose touch of the reality of what you're hearing.
I wish I had realized that a couple decades ago... |
I second this. There are things that work in music theory that just don't seem to work on steel guitar. Being humbled by instructional materials and advice on the forum can have the negative side effect of making you doubt your ear when the music theory says a part should work. |
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Travis Wilson
From:
Johnson City, TX
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Posted 22 Jan 2020 12:34 pm
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| I would suggest for anyone that really wants to wrap their head around theory to invest in a cheap piano. I feel the only way to truly understand things is to visualize it, and only the piano is set up that you can do that. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 22 Jan 2020 12:56 pm
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I second that. I never found piano to get in the way of guitar, rather made it easier.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 22 Jan 2020 12:57 pm
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Mark and Jeff are right - it's a lot like maths and it can either put you off or suck you in.
I've been thinking about what we mean by theory in this context - what bits are actually needed to get by on PSG. I think if you can play every major scale and name all the notes in every chord you use, that's enough. Oh, and be able to recognise and name the interval between any two notes.
The guitarist was playing a D7 and I preferred D7b5 so I said "leave the 5th out". What? "Leave out the A". Still no joy. This is when that modest amount is necessary.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2020 2:45 pm
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| Chris Grigsby wrote: |
What are the best instructional materials for learning music theory for PSG? I always feel like I’m just getting bits and pieces, but nothing comprehensive or linear per se. So far I’ve tried Franklin e9 basics, Winnie Winston, RadyGuide.com, and Deluxe Pedal Steel Guitar Method. The latter seems to have helped the most, but I still feel like I’m lacking a linear education in music theory, if there even is such a thing. Really I’m looking for something like Herb Steiner’s C6th guide but for e9.
-Chris |
Music theory for psg is no different from music theory for any other instrument. Melody, harmony, and rhythm don’t care whether you’re playing a violin or a harmonica.
But this website
http://steelguitaramerica.com/
does a great job of explaining some basic concepts and applying them to steel guitar, starting with the Scales section in the left hand contents column. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2020 5:50 pm
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While I agree that theory is universal, I also see PSG as a “steampunk theory machine†in that the application of theory to song structure and improvising can be visualized as partially built into the instrument- for example no pedals to pedals down is a 1-4 or 5-1 move, pedal A gives a 6m, B&C pedals a 2m, E lowers a 3m, etc. To me theory is the intersection of what is going on in the song and what can be going on with the steel. My E9 theory course is designed to address that intersection.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2020 7:12 pm
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Awesome, Mark!
There you go, Chris. Ask on the forum and ye shall receive. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 23 Jan 2020 12:50 am
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Mark has put an extraordinary thought in my head. I'm just beginning to find myself instinctively making chord changes instead of always having to calculate them, so I must be developing some harmonic muscle memory that's independent of key - if the key of the song changes, I just move frets and carry on.
But what about pianists? If the key changes so does the shape of all the chords. That must mean that in effect they have to learn 12 different instruments! If a song goes up half a step, their whole landscape changes whereas for us nothing's really any different.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Al Evans
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2020 7:36 am
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| Travis Wilson wrote: |
| ... I feel the only way to truly understand things is to visualize it, and only the piano is set up that you can do that. |
I play piano, too, and I always consider it to be my "harmony calculator" because of being laid out like a number line.
--Al Evans
_________________
2018 MSA Legend, 2018 ZumSteel Encore, 2015 Mullen G2, G&L S-500, G&L ASAT, G&L LB-100, Godin A4 Fretless, Kinscherff High Noon |
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Andy Henriksen
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2020 7:45 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| But what about pianists? If the key changes so does the shape of all the chords. That must mean that in effect they have to learn 12 different instruments! If a song goes up half a step, their whole landscape changes whereas for us nothing's really any different. |
I played piano for 2 years in Junior High (I'm 45 now), so....
But, I think pianists pretty quickly get their fingers able to move independently enough, that they are able to instinctually play the intervals, regardless of whether it involves black keys or not. A 1-3-5 feels more or less the same anywhere.
It's sort of like how a guitarist can play a riff pretty easily at several different frets, even though they all have different fret lengths. |
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Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2020 9:41 am
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| Al Evans wrote: |
| Travis Wilson wrote: |
| ... I feel the only way to truly understand things is to visualize it, and only the piano is set up that you can do that. |
I play piano, too, and I always consider it to be my "harmony calculator" because of being laid out like a number line.
--Al Evans |
Several years ago I was talking with Rob Ickes, dobro player, about his collaboration with Michael Alvey, piano player (and music teacher). Rob met Michael at one of his kid's "bring your dad to school" events. Michael was Rob's son's grade school music teacher. They got to talking and they ended up collaborating on some great duets, along with Robinella, vocalist. Kind of a moonlighting thing for both of them.
Rob said to me, "You know, you think you've got a pretty good handle on music theory until you get to play with a really good piano player. Then you realize you don't know that much." and he laughed.
here's some "theory" at work with both of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odWHkgIco2k
(sorry, no pedals)
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 23 Jan 2020 12:35 pm
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This eems to be the appropriate place to mention that I wrote a book on the subject. http://www.perlowinmusic.com/book.html
Full disclosure: I do make a little money whenever anybody buys the book. But not much. If every person who reads this thread buys a copy, I'll make enough to get a new set of strings.
The book itself is pure theory, but I also wrote a supplement that explains how the concepts in the book relate to what the pedals do. I will send a PFD of the supplement for free to anybody who requests it. Of course, the supplement is useless without the book itself.
If you decide to buy the book, please get it from one of our steel guitar dealers instead of a big corporation.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 23 Jan 2020 3:48 pm
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| Franklin wrote: |
Music is Math with Heart
Paul |
Perfect. Thank you, Paul.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 23 Jan 2020 3:56 pm
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That explains why having studied both at school I find that only the music still appeals 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 23 Jan 2020 8:16 pm
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I do not generally think about music theory while I'm playing. Oh, maybe, "Here's a 1-6-2-5 coming up, how do I wanna voice these?". But I think it's indispensable when thinking about playing and preparing to play. I hear too often "I don't want to know enough theory to hurt my playing." But I don't think any amount of understanding of melody, intervals, harmony, voice leading, and any other music theory can do anything but help one's playing as long as it's not used as a substitute for feeling what one is playing. Music is very emotional for me, but feeling emotions doesn't mean you can't think too.
I started at age 6-7 or so (a long time ago!) with classical piano, for about 7-8 years. At 14, saw Mike Bloomfield with the Electric Flag, and I had to have an electric guitar - I jumped ship without a second thought. But to me, piano is the "theory machine", and I'm very happy I had that early training. Yes, piano fingerings in many flat/sharp keys are indeed trickier than in C, but the linear layout makes classical Western music theory jump out at me, and I still think that way in many situations.
I'm basically an applied mathematician by training and trade - physics, electrical engineering, computer science - so at this point, the number/abstract-algebra version of music theory makes the most sense to me. And most of the musicians I work with think in interval number terms routinely. But some musicians just insist on letter versions - "just show me da' notes". |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 24 Jan 2020 2:32 am
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as Dave says. We don't need to think about music theory once we understand some. Its just there, inside us.
We all speak a language, we don't think about our conversations, they flow. ( well some of us should not speak at all , no doubt !)
we automatically have a vocabulary based on what we learned and use.
No different with the language of music or the theory of how it is put together.
IF we are thinking about it while playing , two things :
1- Its too late
2- we really don't know enough to respond automatically.
Someone says to you
Good Morning !
We don't need to think about a reply , we know the words, the response , the style, the execution. We've done it a million times. And we have multiple responses.
Hi, Good Morning, Get LOST or we ignore them !
We are substituting theoretical phrases
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
Last edited by Tony Prior on 24 Jan 2020 6:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 24 Jan 2020 5:27 am
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The school band programs teach music basics, note reading etc. and typically then applied on a horn of some sort which is very basic. After 6 years of playing music from this pedagogy, I realized that I knew zero theory when I entered my first year as a music major. As Freshmen in university music programs you enter a class called “harmony and ear trainingâ€. Take THAT course alone, THEN pedal steel becomes obvious that the guitar itself IS a reflection of pure theory. As Mark van allen points out in the above post. The commercial e9 setup, is, to me, the epitome of basic harmony ie music theory. Or at least is now intuitively obvious why our pedals and knees AND the tuning itself “works so wellâ€. Once that theory is committed to memory, in that it is now second nature, pedal steel then is a vast window or vehicle into the world of true musicianship. In my opinion harmony and ear training is the most efficient method to relate theory to any instrument. Pedal steel represents that relationship most exceptionally.
Bill
Bill |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 24 Jan 2020 7:42 am
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I had the same sort of scientific education as Dave Mudgett. We had a decent piano in the house when I was a kid, and although I never learnt to play it in the performing sense, it was my theory workstation while I was learning other instruments and studying scores - for me it was a musical calculating machine.
I still visualise chords on the piano rather than in notation.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 25 Jan 2020 12:30 am
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| Dennis Montgomery wrote: |
| Learn as much theory as you can. When I 1st started playing keyboards back in 1980 I had a book on jazz theory. Learned all about Major & minor 7th chords even though it was a few years before I knew what to do with them |
I was just going to write something similar to this. I don't think you can know too much theory. Even advanced stuff that you will never use is interesting and fun to learn, and a way to keep your mind on music when you are not actually playing.
Knowing theory demystifies the music and instead of thinking something like "Wow...this guys is a supernatural guitar wizard! How did he ever come up with that solo?!" As I used to think before I knew any theory. Instead you think "OK, he's playing this mode, then changes to this scale...great idea, I'll go try it."
Only way theory may hurt you is if it cuts into your time of practicing your playing and you just keep reading books/instructional material and think you know how to play because of it. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2020 8:33 am
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| Chris Grigsby wrote: |
What are the best instructional materials for learning music theory for PSG? I always feel like I’m just getting bits and pieces, but nothing comprehensive or linear per se. So far I’ve tried Franklin e9 basics, Winnie Winston, RadyGuide.com, and Deluxe Pedal Steel Guitar Method. The latter seems to have helped the most, but I still feel like I’m lacking a linear education in music theory, if there even is such a thing. Really I’m looking for something like Herb Steiner’s C6th guide but for e9.
-Chris |
This chart deals only with diatonic chords and harmony, so it is not quite as detailed as Herb’s. It is a good starter for getting you in the game.
https://jesseleite.com/uploads/misc/e9/pedal-steel-guitar-E9-fretboard-reference-draft-6.pdf
As for music theory being “linearâ€, I would say it is at least two dimensional, if not more. Even that diatonic chord chart is based on a solid foundational grasp of the major scale and the intervallic relationships of the notes. And as others have pointed out, knowing and not doing is not really knowing. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 25 Jan 2020 8:39 am
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| Jacek Jakubek wrote: |
| Dennis Montgomery wrote: |
| Learn as much theory as you can. When I 1st started playing keyboards back in 1980 I had a book on jazz theory. Learned all about Major & minor 7th chords even though it was a few years before I knew what to do with them |
I was just going to write something similar to this. I don't think you can know too much theory. Even advanced stuff that you will never use is interesting and fun to learn, and a way to keep your mind on music when you are not actually playing.
Knowing theory demystifies the music and instead of thinking something like "Wow...this guys is a supernatural guitar wizard! How did he ever come up with that solo?!" As I used to think before I knew any theory. Instead you think "OK, he's playing this mode, then changes to this scale...great idea, I'll go try it."
Only way theory may hurt you is if it cuts into your time of practicing your playing and you just keep reading books/instructional material and think you know how to play because of it. |
Agreed. I look at it that you can never have too many tools in your toolbox. Just don't spend 100% of your life collecting those tools instead of using them 
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
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