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Douglas Schuch


From:
Valencia, Philippines
Post  Posted 22 Jan 2020 4:24 pm    
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Greg Cutshaw uses a Zoom R24, I use a Zoom R16 - but all you really need is a Zoom R8 - they all can record 8 tracks at once. The higher numbers is just the number of tracks you can have stored on it for mixing - but I don't know anyone who mixes on the device. That's where computers shine.

One or two tracks will be used to play back the pre-recorded backing track, or in Greg's case, the drum mix (could also be just a click track to start). But that still leaves you plenty of channels to say both mic an amp and run a feed direct (just in case a big truck rumbles by during the best performance of your life). And have your wife singing on another track, and your kid playing bass on one, and even your dog playing tambourine! Well, I don't use all 8 tracks at once - but often, I will get a track that I think is OK, but want to try again. I simply turn the existing track off, move the input (mic or direct) over to the next empty track, hit the rewind button, and go for another. Each track I record this way will be in perfect synch with the backing track or drum track I pre-loaded onto the device.

I recorded a classical piano performance once with 4 mics - two at the piano and two out in the wings. That was just one piano. For $300 (cost of the Zoom RCool you get a heck of a lot of recording capability. You could easily record a bluegrass band in one pass, running any pickups and mics to a separate channel on the device. Nothing has to be mixed live - just capture each track, and as Greg says, move them to the recording software of your choice to them mix and master them. No latency issues, no new expensive computer - your old one will probably be fine for post, just can't handle the original recording.

I can't tell you whether stand-alone recorders are dead - but I would much rather use mine than any computer method I've read about.
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Greg Cutshaw


From:
Corry, PA, USA
Post  Posted 22 Jan 2020 6:18 pm    
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I agree with Douglas that the Zoom makes securing the live tracks a piece of cake with no latency, glitches or super PC/Mac needed. All three of the Zoom R models can save an almost infinite number of tracks but only play back 8, 16 or 24 of them at a time. At times it is handy to have more than 8 tracks in the playback so that you can hear what the whole mix is and what the other tracks are doing without having to swap in only a certain 8 tracks, This can be a real time saver. One downfall of the Zoom is that it has really noisy inputs and especially with a dynamic mic, you will need a decent preamp to boost the signal level from the mic.
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 23 Jan 2020 2:16 am    
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while I would never argue anyone's choice of "process" I am not understanding how or why recording a track on a DAW is more difficult than tracking on a Zoom ( I have one by the way) and transferring it to the DAW.

The Zoom R16 is a great tool for remote recording but I'm not understanding why it is easier to use at HOME and transferring to the DAW rather than just tracking on the DAW.


IF its because you enjoy it and it's a more comfortable process , thats one thing, but if somehow its more efficient than just tracking direct on the DAW, I'm stumped. This is 2020, Latency issues have been left behind in 2010 !

There are plenty of Zero or NEAR Zero Interfaces available these days which thousands if not millions of home "trackers" are using .


If we haves a Latency issue, why not just fix it , resolve it ?


"Securing Live tracks" what does that mean ? Are we suggesting that a DAW with a 1-TB session drive cannot secure LIVE tracks with no latency ? This I really don't understand. No DISS intended, just a question.
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Jack Stoner


From:
New Port Richey Florida
Post  Posted 23 Jan 2020 3:05 am    
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I started out recording with Fostex standalone units (still have a hand held unit) but went to computer based recording about 15 years ago because of the standalone's limitations.

If you are really serious about recording then computer based is the only way to go.
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Charles Kurck


From:
Living in Arkansas but Heaven is home
Post  Posted 23 Jan 2020 4:03 am     Zoom and DAW
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I purchased a Zoom R16.
It is a good machine but we soon needed more tracks.
I switched to DAW recording using Studio One
where we can add as many tracks as needed.
Now I only use the Zoom R16 as an 8-input audio interface.
Also, I have experienced that Studio One would not allow
tempo changes to tracks that were recorded with the Zoom R16.
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 23 Jan 2020 4:24 am    
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Jack Stoner wrote:
I started out recording with Fostex standalone units (still have a hand held unit) but went to computer based recording about 15 years ago because of the standalone's limitations.

If you are really serious about recording then computer based is the only way to go.


While I don't disagree with Jack as he has always provided and shared a wealth of knowledge based on his experiences, there are many ways to get to the end result. IF someone wants to record on a Cassette Tape and then transfer it to a DAW , so be it, Its just a process. Same with a Zoom or any other Workstation.

Its not for me to say .

What I don't understand is the implied latency issue. Track on a workstation then transfer it to a DAW so there is no latency. I don't question the process even though to me it appears there is an extra step. Millions upon millions of amateur and professionals are tracking direct to a DAW with no Latency. No Workstation in between.

This puzzles me.
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 23 Jan 2020 5:06 am     Re: Zoom and DAW
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[quote="Charles Kurck" .
Also, I have experienced that Studio One would not allow
tempo changes to tracks that were recorded with the Zoom R16.[/quote]


If Studio One can't change the tempo of ANY or ALL imported tracks along with session tracks globally, regardless of where they come from, thats an issue. I would search the forums to find out what's up.

Zooms record in common WAV language. They should be recognized by any DAW once imported. Also any Audio program that allows WAV file play.

Just as a point of ref, Pro Tools for example allows changing all tracks either one at a time or globally to TICKS or SAMPLES. Setting the tracks timebase to TICKS allows global tempo changes, regardless of where the imported files come from. All tracks change at the exact same time to the new timebase. Obviously Reaper does as well as thats what Greg uses.

I suspect this is supposed to be an option in Studio One as well. I would think this would be a mandatory option or how would we be able to perform E Sessions or have someone bring in a WAV 2-track to work on using Studio One. Nobody ever asks where the WAV file came from. Being able to globally change meter is fundamental.

Let us know what you find out , I suspect its in there somewhere !
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Greg Cutshaw


From:
Corry, PA, USA
Post  Posted 23 Jan 2020 5:10 am    
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The Zoom R16 can record 100 tracks if needed in one song. However it can only play back 16 of them at one time.
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 23 Jan 2020 5:35 am    
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Greg Cutshaw wrote:
The Zoom R16 can record 100 tracks if needed in one song. However it can only play back 16 of them at one time.


Yes its a great machine ! I don't use mine often but I won't part with it either. My opinion, its a necessary compliment to any Home PC based Studio . For me it's about Remote Recording and individual WAV files. I should use it more often than I do.

I've said many times this is the best $399 piece of 14 inch plastic available on the market ! Laughing



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Greg Cutshaw


From:
Corry, PA, USA
Post  Posted 23 Jan 2020 6:59 am    
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One answer to "why have the Zoom Rx at all" is that it allows me to record live tracks in my guitar room/studio and then have my PC off in another room on a large comfortable desk with a nice high back chair and lots of natural light. Those are things that I don't have room for in my studio. My PC is used for a lot of other things and I don't want to be stuck in my studio every time I use the PC which is also next to a large screen TV where I can multiplex with other things.
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 23 Jan 2020 7:30 am    
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and thats a very valid reason, its in your personal process. Easy to understand You are actually using it REMOTELY from the DAW. 10 feet or 10 miles away , same thing , track "live" in a different location from the DAW PC.

It appears though that some think the Zoom is used to primarily to combat DAW Latency.

I previously thought you had everything right in front of you, you tracked on the Zoom then immediately transferred to the PC because you didn't want to track on the PC.

your process works for me ! Very Happy
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Greg Cutshaw


From:
Corry, PA, USA
Post  Posted 23 Jan 2020 10:22 am    
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Perhaps a few pics will clarify as well:



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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 23 Jan 2020 11:08 am    
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Nice Greg, Nice and neat as well ! Laughing
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Jim Fogle


From:
North Carolina, Winston-Salem, USA
Post  Posted 23 Jan 2020 6:25 pm     Band-in-a-Box on Computer with Recorder for Recorder
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Bill McCloskey wrote:
Yeah, the idea was to have a dedicated PC. I'm guessing they are pretty cheap these days.

Someone asked, what do I want to record; at the moment, just myself on steel with some BIAB backing tracks.

It will take me a while to digest all the good suggestions. Thank you all so much.


Bill,

Your situation is similar to mine. I use Band-in-a-Box to create backing tracks but do my recording on a dedicated digital recorder. I do it that way so I can work on several song projects.

One reason I like having a dedicated recorder is it allows me to separate the process of using a computer and Band-in-a-Box from the process of recording.

I have a Zoom MRS-8 digital recorder. It takes less than 8 seconds to power up and perhaps another 10 to get into record mode. It's like using a cassette or reel to reel recorder; only better!

The recorder has four mono tracks, two stereo tracks and two mastering tracks. Each track has ten alternate or virtual tracks. However the best feature is there are more than 500 virtual recording signal chain presets. I've never been in a recording studio so the presets acts as my studio engineer by giving me a starting point. Each preset can be modified as desired or needed so as I learn more about recording I have a logical and good place to experiment with settings.

In addition the recorder has a built-in drum machine, bass machine and microphone. My Zoom MRS-8 has been replaced by the Zoom R8 which offers similar capabilities but replaces the drum and bass machine with a sampler and adds a second microphone, surface control and audio interface capability.

A lot of companies use to make desktop digital recorders but now only Zoom, Roland/Boss and TASCAM are left standing. Everyone else either makes computer audio interfaces, handheld recorders or mixers with a computer interface.

For you my first choice would be a Zoom R8. Zoom R16 or R24 are also good choices but I like the R8 because it is more recording focused.

My second choice is the TASCAM DP-03SD. While a great digital recorder it doesn't have the signal chains the Zoom R8 has but does have EQ, compressor for each track and a reverb send. If you know how to use those things, you'll like it.

If you want a big desktop get the TASCAM DR-24SD. It is an awesome machine.

On the computer side you already have Band-in-a-Box and RealBand to make your backing tracks. You can make ANY backing track you want in those two program. You don't necessarily need anything else.

Having said that, many people start in Band-in-a-Box, create alternate riffs or tracks in RealBand then move to a DAW to mix and finish the project. That is more because of habit and convenience than necessity. It use to be necessary but it is not now. Please believe that. I'm not trying to dissuade you from using a DAW if that is your desire, just pointing out you don't need to.

Bill I hope you'll keep us informed regarding your choices and let us follow your journey.[/b]
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Norman Evans


From:
Tennessee
Post  Posted 23 Jan 2020 7:16 pm    
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ajm,

Check out this recorder/interface from Tascam, Model 12. It also has midi. Go to about 3:50 in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9oLmO2UUbg
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 24 Jan 2020 3:41 am    
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Interesting comment above regarding BIAB > Workstations

Hopefully we all know that we can have BIAB on our DAW PC and when we SAVE the BIAB song WAV or MP3 files we can save them directly to the DAW Session drive and import them directly into the session. Its a one step process. Its the magic of a program such as BIAB . Its actually one of BIAB's premier advertised features .

The beauty of this is that it allows the DAW session to create a single session track for EACH BIAB instrument. Now edit , pan, gain, effects, processing etc, is available for each track, independently, at will. No need to mix or do anything inside BIAB, just grab the instrument track or tracks and send them directly to the DAW. Doesn't matter how many there are, they all come over at the same time, as single tracks in the session. They can be Stereo or Mono, thats your choice.

As we all know, or should, we do not treat Drums , Bass , AC guitars , strings , horns or keys etc with the same processing. A BIAB song may easily have 5 or 6 different tracks inside the song file. They each should be dealt with independently.

Workstations are excellent tools, they track and function just fine. But in the BIG Picture their limitations are recognized fairly quickly.

This doesn't mean we cant do this stuff on a nice Workstation, we can. But it's the LONG WAY around the block and we can't see all the houses on the block .

I'm not dissing anyones tools or process, just commenting on the DAW > BIAB simplicity which is totally by design.
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Bob Hoffnar


From:
Austin, Tx
Post  Posted 24 Jan 2020 8:23 am    
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Another reason to track with a zoom, if it hasn't been mentioned, is no need to spend any money on a digital interface, mics or pre amps. Record everything to an SD card and then drag the tracks into a DAW. The Zoom can act as a digital i/o is you want to overdub into the DAW later.

I use other stuff personally but my experience with zoom was overwhelmingly positive.

I currently use a Sound Devices Mix Pre 6 for remote recording and an Aurora Lynx(n) at home.
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ajm

 

From:
Los Angeles
Post  Posted 24 Jan 2020 9:31 am    
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Norman Evans (Tascam Model 12): Interesting item.
Around $600, not bad.
Multi channel USB interface. More channels than most home studio one track at a timers need, but they may come in handy some day..
MIDI in/out.
Will also function as a DAW controller. THIS is a potentially big point for a lot of guys.
However, you still need the computer and DAW to record.

I'd sure like to know why Tascam got rid of MIDI on ALL of their porta studio type machines. Especially the DP24 and DP32.

Speaking of DAW controllers......and Zooms......

Supposedly they will work in that capacity.
I have a friend that bought one to use in that function.
However, for whatever reason, he was never able to get it to work.
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Norman Evans


From:
Tennessee
Post  Posted 24 Jan 2020 12:46 pm    
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ajm, The Model 12 is a standalone multitrack recorder also. It records to a sd card. Norm

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/search.php?s=tascam+model
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 24 Jan 2020 1:45 pm    
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The Zoom is a fine product but its a Recorder first and a Controller 2nd.

If your DAW allows for "MACKIE" interface connection as an option then it will function as a limited controller, if your DAW uses HUI interface language, the Zoom will not connect as a controller . The Zoom cannot be modified.

While HUI language was also developed by Mackie Engineers its a different conversation for some DAWs . Pro Tools for example. The best Control Surfaces talk both languages.

A Control Surface should allow editing of all track and transport functions including automation. Presonus has several units which are exceptional.

The Single Fader Channel Port, which I have

8 Fader system

16 Fader system and there may be a 24 Fader system as well .

They each can be programmed for "Fader banks" as well


The single Fader unit ( Faderport) is exceptional, it doesn't replace the mouse, its in addition to, your choice of functions. I love it for PAN, Fader, transport etc. While it is also very capable of doing all AUTO Fader functions as well . Scrolling back and forth to each track is a breeze, it also AUTO SETS to track settings .

Obviously if we have sessions with massive amounts of tracks, a Control Surface with multiple Faders would be better served for a large session mix.

Connectivity is HUI and Mackie. It just knows . When I first plugged it into my WIN 7 PT 12 system, it was up and running immediately after I set the PT preferences to HUI.





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Last edited by Tony Prior on 31 Jan 2020 2:06 am; edited 2 times in total
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Jim Fogle


From:
North Carolina, Winston-Salem, USA
Post  Posted 25 Jan 2020 10:27 am     This Is A Great Conversation
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It is interesting to me how people's workflow differ.

AJM asked a good question, "Why did TASCAM get rid of a MIDI interface in the DP-24 and DP-32"? While not associated with TASCAM and I don't know anyone that works at TASCAM I think it is easy for anyone to figure out the answer to that question; it's cost which is likely the same reason TASCAM removed the CD burner.

If you look over the remarks in this thread burning a CD or MIDI haven't been mentioned very much.

In a home studio CDs get burned using either a USB CD burner or one built into a tower or laptop. No matter how they are burned they are not needed as much as they use to be. Now files get transferred through cloud storage, memory stick or SD card. When a MIDI interface is needed it is either a part of the computer audio interface, standalone device or USB to midi converter.

The point is companies like TASCAM, Zoom or Boss, don't lose customers when they select the right corners to cut.

The TASCAM DP-24 is available for $399 US at Sweetwater and Guitar Center. That's an astounding value when compared against the first generation TASCAM 2488 that sold for $1,000 US. The DP-24 doesn't have the midi sound module, MIDI interface or CD burner that shipped with the 2488 but few people miss those features. Likewise no one likely misses the 2488 hard disk storage drive versus the DP-24 SD card port or the 2488's orange colored monochrome display versus the DP-24 colored display.

In my view, there has never been a better time to enjoy home recording.
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 26 Jan 2020 2:48 am    
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nice post above. One of the driving factors of change was not just the SD card but along with the ability to record in WAV or even MP3. Tascam/Boss was always behind the curve on this using their own proprietary format.

ZOOM blew them off the planet with the R16 @ $399. 8 Simul record tracks , 16 channels, SD card and separate wav files per track. And can run on batteries !

The SD card could be plugged into any PC or the unit could be USB connected to grab or move the track files. This was the answer MANY were looking for while Tascam/Boss was still doing a conversion step and introducing newer models. It was the DAW/Workstation easy merge that was missing. A common tracking format that was compatible with every DAW.

It was the next generation just waiting to happen and Zoom jumped on it. And I followed ! I parted ways with many previous Workstations, be they Tascam, Boss, Yamaha etc..
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Charles Kurck


From:
Living in Arkansas but Heaven is home
Post  Posted 6 Sep 2020 7:17 am     Changing Track Tempo
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Thank you Tony Prior.  
I finally fixed the tempo problem.  
Zoom R16 did not embed tempo data into the track file.  
Studio One can play tracks without embedded tempo data but
the BPM needs to be manually entered before changing track tempo.  
Here is a video that talks about setting track tempo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_-mJgL5SmE



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