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Topic: Windows 10 latency |
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 30 Dec 2019 6:29 am |
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The delay between applying an audio signal to a Windows 10 system and it emerging again seem well-documented, although none of the fixes I've tried have worked.
I'm thinking of getting some kind of DAW - my question is whether such a program would avoid the problem or whether it needs solving first?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jim Fogle
From:
North Carolina, Winston-Salem, USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2020 6:47 pm Monitor Through An Audio Interface
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Any computer needs processing time. That processing time is called latency. Audio latency is the time from when the command to play audio is given to the time the audio is heard. For most people latency of 9 milliseconds or less is tolerable.
The only time you'll notice latency is when you're trying to blend audio from outside the computer with audio created inside the computer.
For example you connect a microphone to the computer and record your singing to computer music in your headphones. There will be the processing time of the computer generating the audio and sending it to the headphones, your reaction time and the time for your singing to be processed and recorded.
In an analog tape recorder (cassette or reel to reel) latency is the time it takes for the tape to travel from the playback head to the record head. Tape recorders get around this latency by adding a switch that temporarily makes one record head track a playback head. You record a track, flip the switch that uses the same record head to playback the pre-recorded track while the same record head is used to record new audio on an empty track. Not every tape recorder let you record one track at a time or had a switch that eliminated latency. Those features are what made Teac Porta-Studios so popular for home studios.
A computer component called an audio interface is needed to get audio into a computer for recording and out of the computer for listening. The audio interface needs a feature called "direct monitoring" or "real time monitoring". That means the audio interface has a built-in mixer with a headphone jack. The mixer blends incoming and outgoing audio into one audio stream that feeds the headphone jack. So yo hear what's coming out of the computer and what's going into the computer at the same time.
So the issue is not Windows 10 but instead a question, "Which audio interface includes direct monitoring?"
Focusrite makes audio interfaces. Their website has a good article on optimizing a Windows 10 computer for audio. The article is available here: https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207355205-Optimising-your-PC-for-Audio-on-Windows-10
_________________
Remembering Harold Fogle (1945-1999) Pedal Steel Player
Dell laptop Win 10, i3, 8GB, 480GB
2024 BiaB UltraPlus PAK
Cakewalk by Bandlab Computer DAW
Zoom MRS-8 8 Track Hardware DAW |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2020 7:45 pm Re: Monitor Through An Audio Interface
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| Jim Fogle wrote: |
Any computer needs processing time. That processing time is called latency. Audio latency is the time from when the command to play audio is given to the time the audio is heard. For most people latency of 9 milliseconds or less is tolerable.
The only time you'll notice latency is when you're trying to blend audio from outside the computer with audio created inside the computer.
For example you connect a microphone to the computer and record your singing to computer music in your headphones. There will be the processing time of the computer generating the audio and sending it to the headphones, your reaction time and the time for your singing to be processed and recorded.
In an analog tape recorder (cassette or reel to reel) latency is the time it takes for the tape to travel from the playback head to the record head. Tape recorders get around this latency by adding a switch that temporarily makes one record head track a playback head. You record a track, flip the switch that uses the same record head to playback the pre-recorded track while the same record head is used to record new audio on an empty track. Not every tape recorder let you record one track at a time or had a switch that eliminated latency. Those features are what made Teac Porta-Studios so popular for home studios.
A computer component called an audio interface is needed to get audio into a computer for recording and out of the computer for listening. The audio interface needs a feature called "direct monitoring" or "real time monitoring". That means the audio interface has a built-in mixer with a headphone jack. The mixer blends incoming and outgoing audio into one audio stream that feeds the headphone jack. So yo hear what's coming out of the computer and what's going into the computer at the same time.
So the issue is not Windows 10 but instead a question, "Which audio interface includes direct monitoring?"
Focusrite makes audio interfaces. Their website has a good article on optimizing a Windows 10 computer for audio. The article is available here: https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207355205-Optimising-your-PC-for-Audio-on-Windows-10[/url] |
Jim,
That's a very good explanation of this. It's not an impossible obstacle to overcome, it just necessitates doing things differently to compensate for it. Also, I had to get rid of CCleaner and Malware bites on my music DAW computer because these programs don't play well together with audio production. I have very little problems with latency or artifacts in my studio.
RC |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Jan 2020 8:11 pm
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Jim, thanks for the detailed explanation.
With Windows 8 the latency was acceptable, but with Windows 10 it is not, so in that sense it is a Windows 10 problem and hence my question. I have found many "fixes" on the internet, none of which have worked so far.
I shall look into interfaces as you suggest, although I already have an external mixer and I achieve playing along by using a second device. At some point though I want to be able to do multitracking.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 2 Jan 2020 3:02 am
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My recording latency (recording studio) dropped over 1 ms when I switched to Win 10 from Win 8.1. I don't see a lot of complaints on recording forums. Win 10 V1903 when it was first released did affect Latency but a second release fixed that.
Recording interface units all have latency to some extent. Some are better than others. I have had units from Focusrite, Presonus, Roland and MOTU in my recording studio. The worst was Presonus, second worst was Focusrite and the best is MOTU. When Windows 10 came out I was using a Roland Octa-Capture (USB connected) and my recording latency (at a reliable recording buffer rate) dropped from 6ms to 4.5ms. The Octa-Capture died (out of warranty) and the cost estimate was nearly what I paid for it so I dumped it for MOTU. The MOTU recording latency is 2.4 ms. PC audio sound cards have the worst recording latency and realistically are not any good for a recording studio (PC sound cards tend to have poor signal to noise ratios too).
What is causing your specific problems? If you are using an NVIDIA video card in your computer that often causes dropouts (latency) and most (most that I know of) are using either the built in Intel CPU video or AMD Radeon in recording studio systems. Wi-Fi is another known cause of audio problems.
Download and run the free (and popular) Resplendence Latency Mon. It is intended for audio but actually is a good general PC troubleshooting tool
https://resplendence.com/latencymon
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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Travis Wilson
From:
Johnson City, TX
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Posted 2 Jan 2020 8:35 am
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| What DAW are you using? I use Ableton and Reason and have zero issues with latency. Even when using a midi keyboard. You installed an ASIO driver? |
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Travis Wilson
From:
Johnson City, TX
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Posted 2 Jan 2020 8:37 am
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| What program DAW are you using? I use Ableton and Reason and have zero issues. You installed an ASIO driver? |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 2 Jan 2020 9:51 am
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Latency is not in the DAW.
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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Travis Wilson
From:
Johnson City, TX
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Posted 2 Jan 2020 10:07 am
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| Jack Stoner wrote: |
| Latency is not in the DAW. |
ok then. Did he instal the drivers they need? Specifically AISO4ALL |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 2 Jan 2020 11:23 am
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Native (vendor) device ASIO drivers should be used.
ASIO4ALL can cause problems and is only a "band aid". In the early days of computer recording a lot of hardware didn't have or have useful, ASIO drivers and ASIO4ALL was used. Current recording interface devices all have vendor ASIO drivers.
Latency has several potential areas. How well (how bad) the hardware vendor's ASIO driver is. Device buffer size, Device Hardware, PC hardware, OS, etc.
Improper setting, e.g. trying to use too small a buffer size to get better recording latency can cause dropouts. Only the lowest reliable device buffer size should be used.
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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Jim Fogle
From:
North Carolina, Winston-Salem, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2020 7:17 pm Great Comments
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Rick,
Nice to read your comments. I agree latency is a problem that can be minimized. But just like everyone has a computer that has been personalized to suit their needs, the steps needed to overcome latency issues will differ with every computer.
Most audio interface manufacturer websites have suggestions for motherboard and computer operating system settings to modify the computer system to handle audio with minimal issues.
Jack Stoner's link provides a software tool that measures computer system latency. That tool will highlight the computer processes that are slowing down the computer audio. Changing settings for those processes will minimize latency.
One issue facing many Windows computer users is Microsoft pushes new Windows 10 builds out twice a year. Many users are finding each new build resets Window's settings to "factory" defaults set by Microsoft instead of retaining settings made by the user. It has been reported that sometimes the settings are corrupted but do not appear to have changed which is difficult to troubleshoot.
Another issue is some device or audio interface manufacturers rely on native Windows drivers or ASIO4ALL, most notably Realtek and Behringer, instead of investing in developing dedicated ASIO or WASPI drivers for their products.
_________________
Remembering Harold Fogle (1945-1999) Pedal Steel Player
Dell laptop Win 10, i3, 8GB, 480GB
2024 BiaB UltraPlus PAK
Cakewalk by Bandlab Computer DAW
Zoom MRS-8 8 Track Hardware DAW |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 8 Jan 2020 1:51 am Re: Great Comments
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Thanks to everyone who's responded. This is clearly a big issue that I need to invest some time in.
| Jim Fogle wrote: |
| Some device or audio interface manufacturers rely on native Windows drivers or ASIO4ALL, most notably Realtek and Behringer, instead of investing in developing dedicated ASIO or WASPI drivers for their products. |
Maybe I should start by swapping out my Realtek sound card?
I must also digest Jim's topic about Tuning Your Computer. I am adequately qualified to get my head round this stuff, but I find actually playing music way more gratifying.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 8 Jan 2020 3:32 am
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PC sound cards, even the best, are known for latency problems (and poor Signal to Noise ratio). If you are serious about recording use a dedicated recording interface not the PC sound card.
I've found, USB connected, that MOTU offers the lowest (useable) latency. I've had USB interfaces in my recording studio from Focusrite, Presonus, Roland, Behringer and MOTU. I used to use an MOTU 896Mk3 Hybrid but downsized my studio and I'm currently using an MOTU 4pre unit. Both MOTU's use the same ASIO driver and have the same latency. If it died and I needed to replace it, Presonus and Focusrite would immediately be eliminated from potential replacements (and most likely another MOTU would be purchased).
This is what Cakewalk (Sonar) reports for my MOTU 4pre with a 64 sample buffer setting (works reliably at 64).
I mentioned Resplendence Latency Mon program. Here is what it reports for my Win 10 desktop DAW (PC) machine. It was only run for 2 minutes for this test but I've run it for over 30 minutes with similar results. I have no "tweaks", but I have a very clean machine with very little add-on software other than MS Office and Malwarebytes Pro. I use the built in Windows Defender AV.
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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