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Topic: Modern vs vintage sound |
Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 13 Oct 2019 11:49 am |
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I see lots of post discussing "push pull vs all pull sound". To me it's more a question of vintage tone/sound vs modern tone/sound. I have played everything at one time or another. The sounds that made me want to play were those of the mid 60s. Sho-Bud and Emmons guitars played by the likes of Hal Rugg,Weldon Myrick, Buddy Emmons and Charlton, Pete Drake and Lloyd Green. Those sounds were made on Sho-Bud Permanent and Fingertips and Emmons push pull and In the case of Tom Brumley a Z.B. They were played with pickups wound at 15k and under some as low as 11k. They plugged into Fender and Standel amps. So it's not just a question of mechanics. All of the modern guitars sound pretty much the same. They all have a scissor type changer, 24.25" scale. There are minor differences in tone nothing of which can't be dialed up on an amp.The early 70s brought a new more modern sound as players wanted more complicated pedal set ups. The new amps had more power which also changed the sound. Heavier pickups, delays, chorus, blah blah. I have two rigs. A modern and a vintage. The modern rig is a MSA Legend w/Telonics pickups plugged into a Telonics Twin 12 amp with Eminence TT12s. I have a pedal board with a bunch of effects. My vintage rig is a 1968 Sho-Bud Permanent plugged into 1 or 2 Sho-Bud single channel amps. No effects other than amp reverb. My point here is if you want both a vintage sound and modern sound you have to have both rigs. The music I play most of the time these days calls for the vintage rig. I don't believe you can attain both sounds with one single guitar and amp. I also don't think you can get "That Sound" on any old PP plugged into a modern amp.
Even if you want a vintage sound not all Emmons or Sho-Buds have "that sound". I've personally played 4 Emmons and a few more Sho-Buds that have "It". That silky, sweet bright but not thin round,in your face sound.
Just what I know based on 52 years playing.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967.
Last edited by Johnny Cox on 13 Oct 2019 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pat Moore
From:
Virginia USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2019 12:18 pm Yep
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| TRUTH! You nailed it again!!! |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2019 12:41 pm
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The "vintage" pedal steel sounds that turned most of us into steel players were for the most part made by 4 brands..
Fender,ZB,Sho Bud,Emmons.. Yes fantastic music was made later on into the late 70's and 80's on other brands of course,, but the classic pedal steel sounds of the 60's and 70's were made on those brands.. Then one day, it became all about precision mechanisms, rigid frames, triple raise/lower changers, and 20 k pickups.. A price was certainly paid for all that "progress", and it was in the sound.. Modern pedal steels are master works of precision. No question.. To me they lack individual character and they have a sameness .. Full sound with mind boggling sustain yes, but personally, I dunno, give me an old Bud, Fender or ZB for that sound that I crave to hear... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Oct 2019 2:53 pm
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I'm inclined to agree with just about everything that's been said here. Today's pedal steel sounds are very homogeneous. There's not a lot of variety, either in sound or in style, but 60 years ago, that was not the case! Most every player back then had a unique sound and style, and the last thing that any of them wanted to do was copy someone else. Today, it's different. There are, in my mind, only two or three pro players that most aspiring players have gravitated towards. This results in a sameness that we never used to have, a general lack of variety and styles, and I don't think this has helped us.
When I (and a few others here) started playing, EFX were limited to reverb and echo. There were no stomp boxes or processors available to the average player. If a player wanted to sound different, he had to do this with what he had. Gear was limited, and so players were more attuned to talent and imagination than they were to gizmos. Today, there's tons more gear available, and so we have many more "gear heads", those players that think most anything can be accomplished by a box or dingus added to the signal chain. Unfortunately, even with all the great guitars and thousands of EFX, even with all the videos and courses available, something seems missing.
A select few will understand, and sympathize. The rest will write me (and a few others) off as grumpy old men, people who can't or don't want to keep up with the times.
To each his own, eh?
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 13 Oct 2019 3:04 pm
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I've written this elsewhere, but it's the same in the classical world. For a good many years there have been orchestras playing the music of Mozart and Beethoven on replicas of the instruments of the time, which like pull-release steels were technically limited but had a distinct sound. Modern instruments (and that includes all departments) are more powerful and better in tune but have lost some character along the way.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Michael Sawyer
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2019 3:53 pm
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| I play pedal steel cause I heard Ralph Mooney play one... |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 13 Oct 2019 4:43 pm
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| Michael Sawyer wrote: |
| I play pedal steel cause I heard Ralph Mooney play one... |
For me, it was Curly Chalker. But same deal....
Dave |
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J R Rose
From:
Keota, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2019 5:56 pm
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Very nice post Johnny, I respect what you said. Vintage and modern. Two different worlds. Of course I am from the vintage world but I am not against the Modern sound. I think it all works together today. I think to keep an open mind is very important. And I will add to what Micheal said, I play pedal steel today because I heard Tom Brumley and Ralph Mooney. Enough said, J.R.
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NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 13 Oct 2019 6:06 pm
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I will add one more comment. It's much easier to get a modern sound from a vintage guitar than the other way around.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 13 Oct 2019 7:28 pm
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| Jeremy Threlfall wrote: |
I suppose - to some extent -
the characteristics of the vintage sound that we all love are formed by imperfections; pot pedals that get brighter as you bring them on, strings 5&6 with way more hysteresis that the outer strings (on keyed guitars), and less of a pre-occupation with (a) precise tuning (b) timing of pulls and accuracy overall (incl cab drop) |
I actually notice less cabinet drop in old Sho-Bud and Push Pull Emmons guitars. I think more of the sound difference is in the changer and pickup differences combined.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 14 Oct 2019 1:13 am
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Strangely enough I've never played a modern PSG. After being at a number of PSG shows I decided that, although the sound and performances are powerful and full-bodied with the modern guitars, that's just not the sound and feel I want in my music.
The type of reverb you use and the particular speakers in your amplifier also have an important part to play in being authentically "vintage". |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 14 Oct 2019 2:41 am
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| Steve Sycamore wrote: |
Strangely enough I've never played a modern PSG. After being at a number of PSG shows I decided that, although the sound and performances are powerful and full-bodied with the modern guitars, that's just not the sound and feel I want in my music.
The type of reverb you use and the particular speakers in your amplifier also have an important part to play in being
authentically "vintage". |
Absolutely, I use JBL D130s in my Sho-Bud amps and the internal spring reverb. However when I record I prefer a vintage plate reverb.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2019 3:17 am
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The very first pedal steel sound that hooked me and forced me to start playing was made by an Emmons guitar played by Buddy Cage. The sound of it entranced me and I just had to get more and more.. later on, as I started playing I found I liked the sound of other instruments in the hands of other players as well..
Rusty Young's ZB
Lloyd Green's Bud
John Call's Bud
Sneaky Pete's Fender
Red Rhoade's Fender
Tom Brumleys ZB
This song right here exemplifies to me the perfect pedal steel sound... I believe its Dickey Overby but I might be mistaken.. The tone is inspiring... bob
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktPhpwa9lIE
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 14 Oct 2019 4:20 am
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I guess I will be a lone voice in the (modern) wilderness. My experience with steels is somewhat limited since I have lived outside the Continental US since I took up the instrument. I've only ever played around much with 1 steel besides the ones I've owned - but I've owned a few - 75 Sho-Bud S-12 and '74 Pro II round front, a Stage One, a '96 Zumsteel Uni, an '84 Zumsteel D-10, and most recently, two different Millenniums.
When I bought the two Sho-Buds, they were in rough shape, but cheap - project guitars. I had some problems getting all the parts I needed to complete the rebuilds at the time, but I did have both playable, if not complete, and both with single coil pups - and remember liking the tone I got from them compared to my Zum Uni with an Emmons single coil I also had then. But my amp setup was not ideal - playing through a GK MB 200 that just never gave me the crisp tone I was seeking.
Fast forward 5 years, and getting ready for another big move, I finally was able to get back to the Sho-Buds - got the D-10 pretty much set up with a standard coped. I was now playing through a Stereo Steel - my favorite amp so far. And for comparison, I had my Millennium D-10 with Alumitones. And I was expecting I would again prefer the vintage tone, even though I was planning on selling the Sho-Buds. But I was wrong - I definitely preferred the Millennium with the Alumitones - and to my ears, it had more of a vintage tone than the Bud - bright, crisp, with good string separation.
I am not disputing what anyone else has said - and certainly not Johnny, whose pinky knows more about pedal steel than I will ever know - just relating my experience.
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Gabriel Edell
From:
Hamilton, Ontario
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Posted 14 Oct 2019 5:50 am
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I won't dispute anything anyone has said here - I've been playing less than two years and my sole experience is with a keyless GFI and a Steel King. I defer to your experience and wisdom.
My point is this:
While a modern setup may not be able to get "that tone", it certainly still sounds beautiful and adds the same emotional element to music that other instruments (i.e. not steel guitars) can't. The PS has a lot of applications outside country music, and in those cases maximum flexibility is an asset. The PS has a huge amount of potential that is only beginning to be explored. It's such an expressive instrument.
I didn't grow up listening to country music and I came to the PS through soul and gospel music. In fact, it was Bruce Bouton's part on Maxwell's cover of "This Woman's Work" that made me fall in love with it. I've since come to love classic country and the playing of Green, Chalker, etc. But I'm not interested in trying to replicate their tones or what they did. I do appreciate that my GFI is light and stays in tune.
So I think the modern/vintage thing is kind of a moot point unless you're playing a very specific kind of music. I think it says something that the most (and only?) famous steel player on the planet, Robert Randolph, isn't a country player.
As for a lack of diversity in modern players, I think that's also specific to modern country music and is symptomatic of the lack of diversity in the sound of modern country in general. There aren't going to be any really interesting steel parts on a Luke Bryan record because there isn't anything interesting on a Luke Bryan record.
My $0.02.
_________________
GFI S-10 P U, Moyo Volume, Fender Steel King, Fender 5F4 Super-Amp |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2019 6:24 am
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| Steve Sycamore wrote: |
| Strangely enough I've never played a modern PSG. |
Me either. In my case, ignorance is bliss. My three pedal steels are old push/pulls with the wider pedals, and all three were set up by Clem Schmitz. The one I play most often is a butt-ugly bowlin' ball 'mica student model with the standard three floor pedals and one knee to lower the Es. I usually plug it into an old Polytone solid-state jazz guitar amp. It's got "the sound," at least to my ears. Call me a moldy fig if you wanna, but it works for me. |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 14 Oct 2019 8:27 am
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| Gabriel Edell wrote: |
| As for a lack of diversity in modern players, I think that's also specific to modern country music and is symptomatic of the lack of diversity in the sound of modern country in general. There aren't going to be any really interesting steel parts on a Luke Bryan record because there isn't anything interesting on a Luke Bryan record. |
Oddly enough, the guys who've done a lot of that bro country stuff (Russ Pahl, Justin Schipper) are using more of a vintage sound. They both play Sho-Pro guitars, which are new, but they're using very lightly wound single coil pickups through small vintage tube amps. Also, the steel parts are often disguised as synth parts so they might be more creative than you think. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 14 Oct 2019 8:46 am
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Brett,
What once was old is new again. I love traditional but also have great affection for the mavericks like Pete Kleinow. Not necessarily Bud Mavericks,though. The Bro Country can be fun and bears closer examination. Sometimes.
_________________
Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 14 Oct 2019 3:55 pm
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I'm in the same camp as Gabriel. Much as I love the vintage sound, I shall never be called upon to produce it. For what I do I need a guitar with a lot of changes and a very loud but clean amp. So modern gear it has to be. When I occasionally have to do something countryish I play with plenty of expression and no-one questions the sound!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 14 Oct 2019 4:18 pm
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| Part of the "vintage sound" on recordings from the 50s and 60s comes from the recording technology and techniques of the time. And a lot of the sound that you are getting right now comes from your hands. Even how close you are sitting to the steel can affect your tone by changing the angle that your picks strike the strings. |
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Jim Cooley
From:
The 'Ville, Texas, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2019 5:44 pm
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| Gabriel Edell wrote: |
| I think it says something that the most (and only?) famous steel player on the planet, Robert Randolph, isn't a country player. |
Robert Randolph is certainly a great and famous steel player, and I would not pretend to diminish his skill or notoriety. However, "the most (and only)" famous steel player on the planet? There are Paul Franklin, Mike Johnson, Lloyd Green (once and possbly still the most recorded steel player in history), Jaydee Maness, Buck Reid, Doug Jernigan, Tomy White, and many, many more among the living. There are more that are no longer with us, including Buddy Emmons. Several of them are known for vintage tone.
I don't usually make comments of this nature in other peoples' posts. It's not personal, and I respect your opinion. |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 14 Oct 2019 6:34 pm
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Let's not drift off topic. This thread is not intended for the purpose of saying that any sound is better or more popular than another. It's simply an observation gained from my 50 years + professional career.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Jim Cooley
From:
The 'Ville, Texas, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2019 7:07 pm
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I was afraid after re-reading my I post that it might be taken as off topic. I obviously over emphasized personal opinion and understated my interpretation of what I categorize as some players' vintage tone - my fault for poor choice of words.  |
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