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Author Topic:  looking for ideas for a tone control
Will Slack


From:
Texas, USA
Post  Posted 30 Aug 2019 9:22 am    
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My Fender Dual 8 is just a hair too bright with my new amp (deluxe reverb with bright cap removed and treble all the way down!) I could roll off the tone control on the guitar, but I like using that for the 'boo-wah' sound. I know I could use an EQ pedal, but I am always trying to simplify things and lighten my load. Also, I don't want to alter the amp because it sounds great for other guitars as is. So, I'm looking for suggestions.

Could I potentially make a tone control integrated into a guitar cable? Or a very small, passive box? I could see this just having a small trim pot, or maybe even a fixed value that works for this guitar/amp combo. I have decent soldering skills, so if anyone has a good idea how to design it, I imagine I could put it together.

THANKS.
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post  Posted 30 Aug 2019 10:06 am    
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Search around here for the Goodrich Match Box that will snap on to your guitar leg. They've been around a long time and often you can pick up one of the early ones for a reasonable price. Just be sure it's one that has the tone control built in.
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John Limbach


From:
Billings, Montana, USA
Post  Posted 30 Aug 2019 10:09 am    
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Check the capacitor in the dual pro. If it's a paper type it's so dried out that it's more of a resistor. Others disagree but my personal philosophy is that, with the exception of mica types, any cap old enough to draw Social Security should be retired on general principles. Replace it with a .047mfd, the modern value for the old .05. If that doesn't help, experiment with changing the value to roll off more highs.
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Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post  Posted 30 Aug 2019 10:10 am    
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Jerry has the right idea. Very Happy

Erv
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Steve Vroman


From:
Albany, NY
Post  Posted 30 Aug 2019 10:47 am    
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I made a small passive box that I put on my pedalboard, it could just as easily be mounted to a leg of my steel(I'm not home or I'd take a picture) It's just a one knob tone control, wired similar to a Telecaster tone control
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Will Slack


From:
Texas, USA
Post  Posted 30 Aug 2019 12:13 pm    
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Well, the goodrich unit could fit the bill, but I still wonder if there's a smaller DIY option. I'm picturing a box with a 1/4" plug coming out of it, almost like those old dan armstrong orange squeezers, and a 1/4" jack, then like Steve mentioned, just a tele tone control inside.

Oh, and I'll check the capacitor too.
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Brooks Montgomery


From:
Idaho, USA
Post  Posted 30 Aug 2019 2:06 pm    
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Jerry Overstreet wrote:
Search around here for the Goodrich Match Box that will snap on to your guitar leg. They've been around a long time and often you can pick up one of the early ones for a reasonable price. Just be sure it's one that has the tone control built in.


Is the Matchbox an improvement if you play thru a Black Box with the tone knob? Or is it somewhat redundant?

I use a passive (pot) Goodrich pedal.
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A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first.
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post  Posted 30 Aug 2019 2:15 pm    
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Yes, Brooks. If you are using a Black Box, the Match Box would be redundant and/or unnecessary as you suspected.

Will, if you're knowledgeable about building such things, you could pick up an enclosure like a Hammond 1590A "twinkie" size or a square #1590LB and use it to build a tone control with the proper components. www.tubesandmore.com has an assortment of boxes like these.
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Brooks Montgomery


From:
Idaho, USA
Post  Posted 30 Aug 2019 2:23 pm    
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Thanks Jerry!
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A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first.
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Roman Sonnleitner


From:
Vienna, Austria
Post  Posted 31 Aug 2019 12:41 am    
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Just wire up a cable with this:

https://www.neutrik.com/en/product/np2rx-timbre
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Donny Hinson


From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 31 Aug 2019 3:58 am    
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Yes, you could make an inline tone control, or just add a small value cap across the input. I don't know what kind of cables you're using, but you should NOT be using low-capacity cables (like George-Ls) if having too much treble is an issue. The problem you're experiencing can sometimes be eliminated just by using a longer or cheaper cable.
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Murray McDowall


From:
Warrnambool, Victoria, Australia
Post  Posted 31 Aug 2019 8:48 pm    
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Hey Roman, what a great idea!!
I ordered one today.
Many thanks,
Murray.
_________________
'99 Zum D-10 9x8,
'64 L Series "P" Bass,
Peavey Session 500,
Telonics TCA-500C & FP-100D pedal.
Steelers Choice Seat.
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Keith Hilton


From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
Post  Posted 3 Sep 2019 6:59 pm    
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Most guitar tone controls are first order filters. The biggest problem with any kind of tone control filter is the impedance the tone control sees on the output. Low impedance and the tone control will not work correctly. There are many types of second order filters that work great, but they all need to see really high impedance. The drop off per decade is much greater as the order of the filter goes up. Even a 4th order filter is not that hard to build. Last year I got some great experience building filters for a violin manufacturer who was using different kinds of piezo pickups. It was a difficult job taming the highs. The arrangement had to be special because the piezo pickup had to see high impedance.
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Keith Hilton


From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
Post  Posted 3 Sep 2019 7:01 pm    
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Most guitar tone controls are first order filters. The biggest problem with any kind of tone control filter is the impedance the tone control sees on the output. Low impedance and the tone control will not work correctly. There are many types of second order filters that work great, but they all need to see really high impedance. The drop off per decade is much greater as the order of the filter goes up. Even a 4th order filter is not that hard to build. Last year I got some great experience building filters for a violin manufacturer who was using different kinds of piezo pickups. It was a difficult job taming the highs. The arrangement had to be special because the piezo pickup had to see high impedance.
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 4 Sep 2019 12:20 am    
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maybe your solution is right in front of your nose ?





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Will Slack


From:
Texas, USA
Post  Posted 7 Sep 2019 8:56 am    
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Thanks for the input, everyone. Roman, that product is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping existed. I may have to order one to try out, though I think I have solved the issue another way.

In looking through old posts about the Dual Pro, I found this thread in which the discussion gets to the fact that there were two ways the dual pros were wired up. It seems everyone considers the 'alternate hookup' (as listed here) to be superior. I moved the one wire to change mine to the alternate hookup and it is a great improvement. The guitar is still bright, but the tone knob is so much more useful now. I can do the boo-wah sound and still land the tone knob in pleasant territory. And as an added bonus, I can turn down the vol pot without things getting muddy. This alternate hookup should be standard!
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post  Posted 7 Sep 2019 11:00 am    
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That's great Will! Your detective work paid dividends and you don't have to deal with another wart on your guitar leg etc.

I expect others will be following your link for this information for their guitars.
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Cartwright Thompson


Post  Posted 8 Sep 2019 9:21 am    
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You might like a Fender Volume/Tone pedal. Find an old one, the reissues aren’t very good.
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Larry Behm


From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
Post  Posted 8 Sep 2019 9:27 am    
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Do you have an amp designed for steel in addition to the deluxe designed for guitar?

Any graphic EQ pedal should do the job.
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback PP, Telonics 409 pickups, ‘67 Emmons SD10, Hilton volume pedal, BJS, Nashville 400 with 1501DT BW speaker, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G effects unit, Sarno Black Box.

Phone: 971-219-8533
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Patrick Huey


From:
Nacogdoches, Texas, USA
Post  Posted 16 Sep 2019 6:50 am    
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Murray McDowall wrote:
Hey Roman, what a great idea!!
I ordered one today.
Many thanks,
Murray.

Murray,
How much was it? I didn’t see prices listed on the site
_________________
Pre RP Mullen D10 8/7, Carter S-10 3/4, previous Cougar SD-10 3/4 & GFI S-10 3/2, Peavey Session 500, previous Peavey Nashville 400, Boss DD-5, Hilton Digital Sustain, '88 Les Paul Custom, Fender Stratocaster, Takamine acoustics, Marshall amps, Boss effects, Ibanez Tube Screamer, and it all started with an old cranky worn out Kay acoustic you could slide a Mack truck between the strings and fretboard on!!
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Patrick Huey


From:
Nacogdoches, Texas, USA
Post  Posted 16 Sep 2019 6:58 am    
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Keith Hilton wrote:
Most guitar tone controls are first order filters. The biggest problem with any kind of tone control filter is the impedance the tone control sees on the output. Low impedance and the tone control will not work correctly. There are many types of second order filters that work great, but they all need to see really high impedance. The drop off per decade is much greater as the order of the filter goes up. Even a 4th order filter is not that hard to build. Last year I got some great experience building filters for a violin manufacturer who was using different kinds of piezo pickups. It was a difficult job taming the highs. The arrangement had to be special because the piezo pickup had to see high impedance.

Kieth my vote still goes for your original Hilton Digital Sustain box. It has both a gain AND tone control and I’ve preferred it over the Matchbox by far. I can tame the highs in my pre RP Mullen to perfection and to suit the needs of the song I’m attempting to butcher and not have to adjust the amp. Buffered circuitry for no signal loss as well. I wish you still made them w/ the tone control knob.
_________________
Pre RP Mullen D10 8/7, Carter S-10 3/4, previous Cougar SD-10 3/4 & GFI S-10 3/2, Peavey Session 500, previous Peavey Nashville 400, Boss DD-5, Hilton Digital Sustain, '88 Les Paul Custom, Fender Stratocaster, Takamine acoustics, Marshall amps, Boss effects, Ibanez Tube Screamer, and it all started with an old cranky worn out Kay acoustic you could slide a Mack truck between the strings and fretboard on!!
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Murray McDowall


From:
Warrnambool, Victoria, Australia
Post  Posted 16 Sep 2019 3:06 pm    
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G’Day Patrick,

It works pretty well, and cost AU $30 (30 Aussie dollars).
Turn C/W to cut the highs though, in 4 steps.
Good luck.
Murray.
_________________
'99 Zum D-10 9x8,
'64 L Series "P" Bass,
Peavey Session 500,
Telonics TCA-500C & FP-100D pedal.
Steelers Choice Seat.
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Marc Jenkins


From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Post  Posted 16 Sep 2019 10:27 pm    
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Murray McDowall wrote:
G’Day Patrick,

It works pretty well, and cost AU $30 (30 Aussie dollars).
Turn C/W to cut the highs though, in 4 steps.
Good luck.
Murray.


Murray, does it sound approximately like a traditional tone knob at said 4 spots?
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Murray McDowall


From:
Warrnambool, Victoria, Australia
Post  Posted 17 Sep 2019 11:14 pm    
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Yes Patrick, it has a fair bit of treble cut in advancing stages from the second of the four positions of the switch. The first position has no cut at all.
Give it a try, it sounds about right on the second pos with the back C6 neck.
All the best,
Murray.
_________________
'99 Zum D-10 9x8,
'64 L Series "P" Bass,
Peavey Session 500,
Telonics TCA-500C & FP-100D pedal.
Steelers Choice Seat.
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