New guy with questions.

Jason Fredensborg · From: Zimmerman, Minnesota

Hello folks! I hope this is the right place to put this...feel free to move it if not. Anyway, my name is Jason and I have been a fan of steel guitar sound since I was a kid. (Iâ€™m 39 now). I love all the old classic country like Hank and Johnny Horton, and I love all the 60â€™s and 70â€™s stuff from Merle to Waylon and Willie...and the â€œnewerâ€ stuff, George Strait, Allen Jackson...basically all country pedal steel.
I am seriously considering purchasing one but there is so much I donâ€™t know about them, and very little reliable info on the web. Iâ€™d like to shotgun a few questions at you guys...

Double vs Single neck?? I get that there are the two tunings E9 and C6, should I just get the double right away? Or start on a single?

Also, the number of stings is not always the same. 8, 10, 12...where does a guy start?

What is the â€œEamonds setupâ€ and a â€œDay setupâ€ what is a â€œpush pullâ€? Do I even need to concern myself with this yet?

I get what the knees and pedals do...but how many is â€œidealâ€?

There is sooo much mystery around this instrument, I figured I ask here first.

Also, I do play regular guitar, not very well...but I do play but I donâ€™t read music. So Iâ€™m not completely new to all the concepts.

Any help you guys could give me to point me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. Iâ€™ve seen some nice looking PSG on here in the for sale section but before I go dropping money on something, I should probably get a little education on it. Iâ€™m not really looking to do shows or anything, just want to play and record for my own personal enjoyment.

Paul Wade · From: mundelein,ill

Well
Let's start with welcome to the world of PSG. Your going to get a lot of answers here.i would start with a S-10 3 pedals 4 knee lever's. That's plenty for you.
Emmons set up. Talk to someone in your area that is a steel player.

p.w

Gary Watkins · From: Bristol, VA

JASON,
I don't know that much, but I'll help you all I can. If someone says that a single neck is best, make sure they aren't selling a single neck. Also, if someone says a double neck is best, be sure they aren't trying to sell you a double neck. I started on a single neck, but now I have a double neck and I wished I had started on a double neck from the start. The C6 is giving me a fit, but I think it will be worth it if I just stay with it. I have the EMMONS set-up, which means that the first three floor pedals are set up as A-B-C. The DAY set-up is C-B-A. If at all possible, try to find someone to give you lessons. Trying to "un-learn" a bad habit is harder than doing it right the first time, and with a good teacher, they will show you the correct way. If you ask 100 people a question, you will get 101 different answers. LOL Hopefully, someone with more knowledge than me will give you more information.
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

No, you needn't concern yourself with a push/pull. They're old, expensive, heavy, and can be difficult to adjust. (Yes, I own one, but seldom play it.) And if you're just starting out, either the Emmons or Day setup will work...it's all in what you get used to. As far as the number of strings, the 10-stringers are far more common, so there'll be more learning materials available for you, and it will be easier to find a teacher.

(And no, I'm not selling. The last guitar I had for sale was in 1973.)

What kind of music do you like?

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Hi Jason. Welcome. You don't list what area of Minn. you are in, but there are a bunch of players around. My advice is to find a local player that can help you. Maybe there are steel jams or shows, meetings etc. in your area.

I wish I had found someone like that when I started some 40 yrs. ago. I later found there were pickers within less than 5 miles from me that I did not know about. You may have some that close to you as well.

If you can find such a situation, it will be very helpful for answering your questions. You can see and hear pedal steels in action and pick the brains of players as well.

One caution, there are as many opinions as there are players concerning gear etc. You really need to be patient and do your own homework to make sure you acquire something that suits your needs...maybe even your long term goals as well.

Ask questions here concerning guitars that you see for sale here. Any seller worth his salt will be forthcoming and would not be opposed to someone asking for opinions. Just maybe not do it in their classified ads.

Best of luck.

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

My advice, which I have given to many beginners (forumites probably get tired of reading it): contact Doug Earnest (Stage One Steel Guitars: doug@stageonesteelguitars.com )

And get on his waiting list for an Zumsteel Encore. Zumsteel is one of the top names in the steel guitar world, but except for the Encore, are no longer in production. The Encore is a no-frills model, but with full Pro mechanics. With 3x5 (probably what you should order) they cost new $1649 IIRC - less than most used models. And here's the thing - a significant number of beginners try steel for a bit, and give it up. Nothing wrong with that. But there is the investment - and a good condition Encore will sell used for the same as you paid for it - there is always someone wanting to skip the waiting time. So your only expense would be the shipping cost to you. There are very few instruments that you can liquidate for what you paid for it new.

The same thing is true if you decide (as I did in the first year) to move up to a double-neck or 12-string Universal tuning. So no worries about trying to decide what is the ultimate guitar you will want to end up with (and that is unknowable at this point). You start on the E9 tuning, 10 strings - that is the most common setup, and one that most beginner instruction material is written for.

As for Day vs. Emmons - most guitars can be easily changed between them. Basically, they have the same three pedals, but arrange them in reverse order. Emmons is more common, but some say they think Day is more ergonomic.

3 pedals/5 levers is pretty standard for E9. Many guitars are being made with 4 pedals on E9 these days, but I suspect 95% of the people with a 4th pedal almost never use it (I am guilty as charged). It certainly does not hurt to have an extra pedal on the guitar - but does add a few bucks to the upfront cost.
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Daniel McKee · From: Corinth Mississippi

You cant go wrong with a single 10 3 pedals and at least 4 knees. Experiences will vary but if you can, I'd avoid some of the older stuff available until you have a bit more experience. The ZUM encore, stage one either one is a good start. Good price for a new instrument that's actually as good as any pro models out there.

Jason Fredensborg · From: Zimmerman, Minnesota

Jason Fredensborg · From: Zimmerman, Minnesota

Benjamin Davidson · Posted 23 Jun 2019 4:10 am

I was in your spot just over a year ago. Lessons, for the money and what you wish to play, invest in the Paul Franklin Method E9th foundations for around $100 which gives your the course for a year to steam anywhere. Ive completed that course and found it perfect for a guy in your position. Even the C6th that was played on the music you like, can somewhat be faked on a normal E9th 10 string.

I'd get a modern built steel, S10 or SD10 in your position. I learned on a GFI student model 3 pedals 4 knees and a standard copedent, its a pull release but Ive found it is a perfect guitar to start out on. Ive since moved to a Justice with a universal setup, but that is not where I'd have players start from. You've started in the right place, this forum is a geeat resource. Keep asking questions here.
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Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

There are several steel players in your area. Seems to me there is a post on here about Minnesota steel players. Also, Williams steel guitars are built right there, in Anoka (or something like that) county. That would be a good place to check out. It may be more than you want to spend though.

http://www.williamsguitarcompany.com/
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I did a search on the members button above. It showed one member from Zimmerman, a Bob Anderson, but no posts since 2008, so status unsure.

Otherwise, there are 3 or 4 pages of Minnesotans listed, however the cities are not listed there.

There are likely some gatherings in the area. Also, a couple hundred miles from you in Wisconsin Rapids, there is an annual jam. https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=311340&highlight=dairy+jam
Edit: Just noticed the Dairy Jam has been discontinued, sorry.

Perhaps there are other gatherings close to your area.

Hopefully, someone closer that knows the area better than me will reply to your post.

As to online lessons, I hear Paul Franklin is doing Skype lessons. Look for posts by John Spaulding for info. In case you don't know, Paul has done studio work for just about everybody in the last 30 yrs. as well as staff steeler for the Nashville super group of musicians The Time Jumpers.

I believe John McClung does online lessons also.

Jason Fredensborg · From: Zimmerman, Minnesota

Jason Fredensborg · From: Zimmerman, Minnesota

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Jason, my story might be instructive. After years of being curious about pedal steel but not knowing how to proceed on a zero budget, I finally found an old wreck of a D10 in a junk shop and got it going. I learned later that it was actually a high-quality instrument, just neglected. I knew what E9 sounded like, but because the C6 neck was there I soon got fascinated with that too.

I'm not suggesting you restore a wreck, but I would get a good used all-pull D10. It will last you a long time before you need anything better. Emmons or Day, doesn't matter if you're starting out..
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

John Spaulding · From: Wisconsin, USA

Online streaming lessons (not Skype): Franklin Courses

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Double vs Single neck?? I get that there are the two tunings E9 and C6, should I just get the double right away? Or start on a single?

Start on a single. More than 90% of steel guitar music is played on the E9 neck.

Also, the number of stings is not always the same. 8, 10, 12...where does a guy start?

What are your goals? If you want to play country, 10 strings are the standard. But if you eventually want to play rock, 12 strings are better as they will allow you to get power chords.

What is the â€œEamonds setupâ€ and a â€œDay setupâ€ what is a â€œpush pullâ€? Do I even need to concern myself with this yet?

Donâ€™t even think about a push pull. Nobody makes them anymore anyway.

The Emmons (please note the correct spelling) vs Day setup simply refers to the order of the pedals, It really makes no difference, and is a matter of personal preference.

I get what the knees and pedals do...but how many is â€œidealâ€?

You need 3 pedals and 4 knee levers. 5 is better, but unnecessary.

...I donâ€™t read music.

Nobody else does either, (except me.) Youâ€™re going to learn from tab. I advocate that everybody learn to read music, but only after they have learned how to play. The traditional/classical approach to learning an instrument by learning to read and following the printed notes doesnâ€™t work on the steel.
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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

One more entry and I'll get out. You indicated you have interest in the C6 tuning, so my suggestion would be to go ahead and buy a D10 if one is in your budget. This way, you have an instrument that you will not need to upgrade down the road.

Sometimes used D10's are about the same cost or even less that SD10 [single on a double frame.]

I would avoid really old guitars. Buy as recent and as unplayed an instrument as you can find and afford.
The last thing you need is to buy something that's in need of replacement parts or lots of maintenance.

That's why I suggest getting to know someone in your area that can help you weed those out. Problems are not always obvious at first glance. Educate yourself on the mechanics.

The following is what can be called a modern 8 pedal 5 knees, standard tuning for a D10. It's a chart I copied from someone else' copedent. It has everything you need.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

John Palumbo · From: Lansdale, PA.

Get a hold of this book by Winnie Winston & Bill Kieth some real good reading & reference

David LeBlanc · From: New Brunswick, Canada

Hi Jason . Welcome to the world of steel guitar. You said Williams Guitars are 20 miles from you. At the very least you could go see them and sit behind one , even if you don`t buy one. That way, as stated about your height and posture could be crucial for your future purchase . If I where you, I would absolutely try to find a player around and pic his brains about ( His steel, Bar , Volume pedal, Picks , Ect....) . I started on a S10, but got a D10 after a couple of years. Try as I may, I could never get a hold of the C6. So after a while I just tuned my back neck to open G , like a dobro. I like playing R&R on my back neck. I have changes on pedal 5,6, and 7 but rarely use them. My 8th pedal drops my open G to open D. Now that I have a D10, I wouldn`t go back to a S10 . Just my 2 cents .Good luck on your journey. Dave

Benjamin Davidson · Posted 23 Jun 2019 5:23 pm

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

well, welcome. The initial answer is a Single 10,( single neck) E9th tuning, 3 pedals, 3 or 4 knee levers.

Acquire a USED, pretty much any brand under $1000 . Even a student guitar.

More than likely a majority of forum members and long time players here started on a Single Neck, E9th with 3 Pedals and 1 knee lever. The Pedal Steel has evolved over the last several decades in that even the simple lower cost single neck guitars are a 3 + 4 set up. (Nomenclature 3+4 means 3 pedals and 4 knee levers ) All Steels from the 60's on are typically 10 string necks. IF less, it will be noted. 10 is the assumed standard.

Considering your background and experience, this is where I would recommend you begin.

Don't worry about reading music, various mechanisms etc, double necks etc, A simple E9th , single neck, 3 pedals and a few knee levers will keep you busy for a very long time, I am talking a few years, not a few months.

The other not mentioned benefit is that probably 80% of all written instructional material is for the single neck, E9th , 3 Pedals and a few Knee Levers. In this case, consistency matters.

Perhaps the only REAL recommendation would be to acquire a used Steel with PULL RODS , also called ALL PULL system. Some early guitars has cable systems, you may want to
bypass those.

PUSH PULL, is a mechanical system designed by EMMONS Guitar Co and Buddy Emmons, I doubt you will find a single 10 for a reasonable price so don't worry about those !

Regarding which set up, Emmons vs Day, all that means is that on a 3 pedal E9th guitar, referred to as ABC Pedals, A and C are reversed. Emmons setup ,ABC, as in Buddy Emmons, Day setup CBA as in Jimmy Day . Its the same exact music with the A and C pedals and functionality reversed.

Is one standard ? Well many would say Emmons setup is standard but the DAY players would argue the opposite. It is perhaps true that there are more EMMONS, ABC steups out there in Steel guitar land. Before you purchase, ask. A majority of written instruction, if not ALL is written ABC , this may be a consideration. If you own a DAY setup, CBA, you will have to THINK C when you see and read A.

good luck
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jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Those who advocate starting on a single E9 are quite correct that it's the most-used tuning. But then if you become proficient on it the C6 tuning will seem strange when you do decide to try it.

I spent equal time on both necks right from the start, which means that I appreciate the differences without either seeming strange, and switching to a uni was a non-event.

HOT TIP If you do acquire a D10, tune the C6 neck down to B6. Not only does it prepare for a possible transition to uni, but it makes the key of C much more friendly.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Good point, Ian. I recall a conversation with Tommy White during which he told me that his father had him start out on both necks simultaneously.

I don't have the vocabulary to express just how much I wish I had done the same thing! Playing catch-up isn't easy. Embarassed

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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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