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Topic: Push Pull's |
Ron Shalita
From:
California, USA
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Posted 12 May 2019 3:25 pm |
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I hear a lot of people talking about how great the tone was on push pulls, I have got to say that although I have had a LOT of PSG's but never a push pull... If it is true that the tone was to die for then, can someone on the forum explain to me WHY out of all the Guitar builders out there why isn't anyone building a PP???? Thanks in advance... Ron
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Been playing all of my life, Lead Guitar, and Pedal Steel, sing Lead and Harmony.. play other Instruments also but I hate to admit to it.. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 May 2019 5:05 pm
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| Probably the same reason they're not building a new 1955 Chevrolet. People wanted something more modern that just worked better. Push/pulls sounded great, but they were finicky and hard to make changes on. Most players would rather have something they didn't have to pay a professional hundreds of dollars to work on when it came time to change their setup. |
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Craig Bailey
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Posted 12 May 2019 5:11 pm
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I have to say, at least in my experience, out of all my steel guitars, my push pull sounds the best hands down. However, it is hard to work on, hard to tune and is complicated. Again, in my opinion and experience, I have just about decided I am willing to give up a little bit of tone for the ease of dealing with an all pull guitar versus a push pull because I am constantly having to get it worked on...When it is working right, it sure sounds sweet though....
Craig
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________________
Mullen G2, Mullen Discovery, GFI D10 Ultra,
'76 Rosewood Emmons PP, '79 Black Emmons PP
Telonics Amp, Stereo Steel, Fender Vibrasonic & many Telecasters (You can't have too many) |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 13 May 2019 1:01 am
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My take, the added cost to manufacture is probably the #1 reason. One only has to turn it over and look at the amount of parts along with extended labor hours to piece it all together. While the very simple ALL PULL design was becoming the manufacturing standard.
All pull > rod, bell crank, clip , changer finger, raise / lower > same procedure
Push Pull > rod, hook, bunch of springs, collars , set screws > finite adjustments, raises and lowers use a different procedure. One adjustment may interfere with another.
The question is asking why manufacturers do not build a modern era P Pull. Perhaps some of it has to do with design copyrights as well as straight up manufacturing costs.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
Last edited by Tony Prior on 13 May 2019 3:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 13 May 2019 2:21 am
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I've just spent 3 weeks stripping, cleaning and replacing all moving parts on my push-pull. Provided that you work methodically, a push pull is fairly straight forward to work on. Tone wise - absolutely superb. There is still a pretty good market for clean and well maintained Emmons push pulls, especially the early ones. Quite an achievement for guitars that are 60+ years old.
As an owner of a number of modern all-pull guitars, I can honestly say that in terms of sustain and resonance the gap is closing in the area of tone. The push pull tone thing is not a myth. A decent, well set up push-pull will hold its tuning better than most all-pulls. The all-pull pull rods are affected by temperature change, whereas the push pull isn't.
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 13 May 2019 4:25 am
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I had a 71 Emmons Black mica D-10, bought new. Then I ordered a new Franklin D-10 that came with Lawrence 705 pickups. No contest in mechanics or tone, for me. I received the Franklin the end of December (I think 82 but could have been 81 - I forgot) and two months later the Emmons was sold.
I hear the sound of an Emmons on recording sessions I was on. Its a great sound, but to me no better than my Franklin with Lawrence pickups.
The Emmons was easier to work on. I completely disassembled and cleaned both changers in the Emmons twice. As I had worked on Emmons when I worked at Little Roy Wiggin's Music City music store in Nashville I had experience adjusting all the rods. I disassembled and cleaned the E9th changer in my Franklin two years ago it required more to remove it and it won't get disassembled and cleaned by me again.
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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Lynn Stafford
From:
Ridgefield, WA USA
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Posted 13 May 2019 9:49 am Re: Push Pull's
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| Ron Shalita wrote: |
| I hear a lot of people talking about how great the tone was on push pulls, I have got to say that although I have had a LOT of PSG's but never a push pull... If it is true that the tone was to die for then, can someone on the forum explain to me WHY out of all the Guitar builders out there why isn't anyone building a PP???? Thanks in advance... Ron |
Ron,
I believe the majority of players that choose to play an Emmons push-pull are doing so mainly because of their fabulous tone. They are a bit tricky to work on and set-up properly though. They clearly aren't for someone that likes to experiment with copedents. All-pull guitars with square cross bars (Emmons LeGrande, Zumsteel, Williams, Desert Rose, Justice, etc.) or hex shaped cross bars like Mullen or Rittenberry guitars (with readily removable bell cranks) are much easier to make changes to than most any guitar with round ones (Sho-Bud, MSA, Franklin, etc.).
Bruce Zumsteg developed his Hybrid design, which in my opinion comes very close to the Emmons PP tone. Also, like all Zumsteel guitars, it has square cross bars (with removable bell cranks) along with features like split tuning. Kind of like having the best of both worlds!
However, as others have mentioned, push-pull guitars once set up properly are very stable and have excellent playability. They just aren't for everybody, which is why I try to explain all the pros and cons to folks that are contemplating buying one.
Promat, in Serbia was the only company that built new push-pull guitars that were virtual Emmons clones. The owner, Dusan Papic passed away a couple of years ago, so the company is no longer building guitars. They built 25 guitars in total and last year I built number 26 for them, a left-handed D-10. It now resides in Texas with their customer, Ron Grant. Here is a link to that story, if you're interested.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=337948&highlight=promat
Because of high demand, I've chosen to build a few Emmons push-pull guitars from various new and used parts that I've acquired over the years. The lacquer S-10 pictured below is currently for sale on my website.
I've previously built two more S-10 guitars, the first one being another lacquer S-10 and the second, a black mica S-10, which I just sold to Forumite, Fred Rogan, in Alabama. I'm planning to build a black mica D-10 push-pull later this year.
_________________
Best regards,
Lynn Stafford
STEEL GUITAR WEST
http://www.steelguitarwest.com
Steel Guitar Technician (Restoration, Set-up, Service and Repair work)
Previous Emmons Authorized Dealer & Service Technician (original factory is now closed)
ZumSteel Authorized Service Technician
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 13 May 2019 10:14 am
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| Quote: |
| All-pull guitars with square cross bars (Emmons LeGrande, Zumsteel, Williams, Desert Rose, Justice, etc.) or hex shaped cross bars like Mullen or Rittenberry guitars (with readily removable bell cranks) are much easier to make changes to than most any guitar with round ones (Sho-Bud, MSA, Franklin, etc.). |
My Sho-Bud Super-Pro has hex cross bars, not round ones... |
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Lynn Stafford
From:
Ridgefield, WA USA
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Posted 13 May 2019 10:26 am Super Pro Hex Cross Bars
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| Barry Blackwood wrote: |
| Quote: |
| All-pull guitars with square cross bars (Emmons LeGrande, Zumsteel, Williams, Desert Rose, Justice, etc.) or hex shaped cross bars like Mullen or Rittenberry guitars (with readily removable bell cranks) are much easier to make changes to than most any guitar with round ones (Sho-Bud, MSA, Franklin, etc.). |
My Sho-Bud Super-Pro has hex cross bars, not round ones... |
Yes, Barry, that's true but the bell cranks can't be removed, unless you do some prior disassembly.
_________________
Best regards,
Lynn Stafford
STEEL GUITAR WEST
http://www.steelguitarwest.com
Steel Guitar Technician (Restoration, Set-up, Service and Repair work)
Previous Emmons Authorized Dealer & Service Technician (original factory is now closed)
ZumSteel Authorized Service Technician
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 13 May 2019 10:40 am
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Lynn
Those are top quality guitars that you have put together. I've said this before - you and Billy Knowles are both wizards at what you do with push pull guitars, and yet neither of you have a certificate to show for it. Funny that! 
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Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 13 May 2019 10:58 am
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It's been said that the only guitar that had tone like an Emmons was a ZB.
After I obtained and worked on a ZB, I can understand why.
The changers on both guitars are quite similar.
And that's where the tone comes from. 
Erv |
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Bruce W Heffner
From:
Payson, Arizona
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Posted 15 May 2019 5:07 am Push Pull
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Lynn has it right...….it is the tone and they are not for everyone. No one is making them because they are not profitable, compared to an all pull and everyone that wants one or two probably has them. My opinion.
Bruce W
_________________
Bruce W Heffner AKA Wally
"We live in Arizona now."
Payson, AZ |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 15 May 2019 5:42 am
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Well there’s some mighty fine pro steel players that won’t settle for anything but a push pull Emmons steels.
If you have not tried a good push pull your missing out on a instrument that will inspire you too play!!!
Even the so called student model push Pull can be a treasured keeper! |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 15 May 2019 6:06 am
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| Johnie King wrote: |
Even the so called student model push Pull can be a treasured keeper! |
I love my two little Gee Esses. I just finished installing a Black Rock-style neck and new fretboard (thanks, Lynn Stafford) on this little sunburst from the mid-seventies. Clem Schmitz set it up last autumn, and installed the new long silver knee lever handles from Jerry Roller.
The BR-10-style "neck" raises the 'board closer to the strings and is a big improvement, both aesthetically and in narrowing the gap between the strings and the 'board, reducing the parallax effect.
It's a nice lightweight single-neck 3x4 that doesn't take a back seat to anything in the sound department.
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john buffington
From:
Owasso OK - USA
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Posted 15 May 2019 6:44 am
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| I recently acquired a Black Rock 10,and thanks to Jerry Roller he installed 2 extra knee levers, silver finished. It is the best of both worlds: 1) it is a true Emmons bolt on, and definitely has the tone, 2) it is not a back breaker. |
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John Gould
From:
Houston, TX Now in Cleveland TX
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Posted 15 May 2019 9:58 am Push Pulls
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I think the big tone difference in the PP guitars is how the changer sits in relation to the body of the guitar. It's seems to be a more positive connection .
_________________
A couple of guitars
Nashville 1000 Fender Mustang III Boss Katana MKII 50
Emmons LeGrande II and Sho Bud Pro II |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 15 May 2019 11:02 am
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| Jack that’s a beautiful push pull good job I bet you would not take a farm in Texas for her!! |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 16 May 2019 12:33 am
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the question is
If it is true that the tone was to die for then, can someone on the forum explain to me WHY out of all the Guitar builders out there why isn't anyone building a PP????
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meaning:
Why aren't manufacturers building Push Pulls, as in PRODUCTION
Not which one sounds better .
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Pat Heller
From:
Missouri, USA (deceased)
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Posted 16 May 2019 6:25 am Emmons Push Pull
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Over the years I've owned a ton of guitars. At least 15 P.P.'s- they all sounded good. 1 guitar (a 1977 P.P. WAS BYE FAR THE BEST SOUNDING EMMONS I'VE EVER OWNED) to my ear better than my 67.
From working on P.P.'S for years I've found that most of the problems my customers experience is not knowing HOW TO TUNE THEM. It always amazes me when a guy puts on a set of strings - pushes the pedals 2 or 3 times then gets his hex key out and goes to town.-- that or the strings are dead as hell to start with.
I agree they are not the easiest to change copedents on but once set up properly they are almost bullet proof. 1|2 tone tuners on strings being lowered can be a nightmare to reach.
As far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter what kind of guitar and amp is being used if you don't have the touch you can talk about tone forever!!!! P.H. |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 16 May 2019 9:20 am
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| Johnie King wrote: |
| Jack that’s a beautiful push pull good job I bet you would not take a farm in Texas for her!! |
Thank you, Johnie. In my book, these little Emmons student models are severely under-rated instruments. With a few relatively simple mods, they're perfectly capable of holding their own with the big boys.
About that farm in Texas? I may consider a trade (only because I have a second GS-10 that sounds just as good, but ain't nearly as purty). |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Indiana, USA
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Posted 16 May 2019 10:39 am
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I usually gig with a push-pull, especially this ‘81 I have that feels like putting on an old shoe when I sit down to it. It just feels comfortable.
But last weekend I took out an early Sho-Bud I had just gotten. A lot of fun with a different feel and tone. Now, when I walk by the Emmons case sitting by the door it won’t talk to me anymore. |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 May 2019 10:27 pm
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The PP tone is about sustain, it sings to you.
The PP guitars are almost immune to cabinet drop.
Once the pedals and levers are set up, they rarely need to be re adjusted. Very solid.
I find the unusual tuning procedure of a PP to be necessary only while setting the intonation of the levers and pedals.
Once the guitar is set up, I tune at the key head like any All Pull.
I recently played a ZB that sounded even better. Did not play as smoothly though. And I hear they are a nightmare to work on.
Plenty of great sounding All Pull guitars out there. I use them as well.
John |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 17 May 2019 9:28 pm My Promat PP sounds great
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Lynn Stafford did a real nice set up on my Promat last year and it sounds great to my ear. He wanted to use it to get measurements to finish building the last Promat that was unfinished when Mr. Papic passed away. The Promat is metric so slightly different though many Emmons parts will work with a little effort.
Lynn mentioned that the stainless steel fingers give a little different tone and he'd be the one to know for sure. He didn't say if better, not better or just different?
I've never owned an Emmons so can't compare the tone. The Promat not only sounds good, but has great sustain too.
Other Emmons players who have played mine have liked it quite a lot and all seemed to think it was very well made. Had great sustain and really good tone.
For some reason aluminum fingers do have real nice tone.
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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Greg Thompson
From:
Taumarunui, New Zealand
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Posted 17 May 2019 10:10 pm
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Lynn, From your experience how do the tone and sustain compare between the Zum and Emmons?
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Prototype Zum Encore,5&4 NZ made Rockit Champ 60watt and 100watt Amplifiers, Hilton Pedal,NYXL Strings |
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