The Steel Guitar Forum Store 

Post new topic 4 Inventive Key Changes in Pop Music
Reply to topic
Author Topic:  4 Inventive Key Changes in Pop Music
Andy Volk


From:
Boston, MA
Post  Posted 9 May 2019 1:26 pm    
Reply with quote

This whippersnapper is an excellent explainer. I found it quite interesting to see how much craft is behind this pop music. McCartney did this stuff intuitively, which is mind-blowing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ81Sz38Acw
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Mike Neer


From:
NJ
Post  Posted 9 May 2019 3:43 pm    
Reply with quote

I’m working with Max Reger’s book Modulation. Written over a hundred years ago, it’s really cool and you can’t beat the price ($3.97 Amazon Prime).
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Godfrey Arthur

 

From:
3rd Rock
Post  Posted 9 May 2019 9:27 pm    
Reply with quote

Although it is fun to dissect known hits for their music theory, I would venture to say that much of it is serendipitous and the original composers mostly unaware of the chains in theory movement, them just being good music scientists and following innate laws of harmony and theory, more so if they've had music training. It would be second nature.

Billy Joel, a classically trained pianist with a pianist father, was a rock organist not unlike Jon Lord before he became the Piano Man playing silly love songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7s8PHnCTGI
That's Mr. We Didn't Start The Fire on vocals and keys, mind you.


Note copious amounts of effected organ using wahs and other effects from the late 60's early 70's.



BJ with drummer Jon Small with their band Attila

But yeah I like the Bm7 flat 5 in Uptown Girl, giving credence to the modulation in A.

David Bennett is a bright young musicologist.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7
View user's profile Send private message

Andy Volk


From:
Boston, MA
Post  Posted 10 May 2019 2:53 am    
Reply with quote

It depends whom you're talking about. The beatles created imaginative progressions partly because they didn't know music theory. Other pop writers, like Jimmy Webb,were very well-versed in theory and quite calculated in creating the effects they wanted. Mike Neer tipped me to Webb's excellent book on Songwriting:


_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Godfrey Arthur

 

From:
3rd Rock
Post  Posted 10 May 2019 3:05 am    
Reply with quote

Andy Volk wrote:
It depends whom you're talking about. The beatles created imaginative progressions partly because they didn't know music theory


More than likely George Martin helped with the theory. Note that all of a sudden they went from a cover band touring EU to making hits overnight.

There is also rumors of another having written the songs but so far, investigative efforts like those of Jan Irvin's has not come up with something conclusive.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7
View user's profile Send private message

Jeff Garden


From:
Center Sandwich, New Hampshire, USA
Post  Posted 10 May 2019 3:43 am    
Reply with quote

Very cool - thanks Andy.

For Beatles "theorists", I found this DVD "Deconstructing the Beatles: Chords and Progressions" to be really interesting.

https://www.amazon.com/Deconstructing-Beatles-Progressions-Scott-Freiman/dp/B07D3DJQQM/ref=sr_1_10?crid=2OR1AMBKN0RWU&keywords=deconstructing+the+beatles+dvd&qid=1557488512&s=movies-tv&sprefix=Deconstructing+the+beatles%2Cmovies-tv%2C189&sr=1-10-catcorr
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Skip Edwards

 

From:
LA,CA
Post  Posted 10 May 2019 5:24 pm    
Reply with quote

Great topic... I'm a big fan of non-standard modulations.

Which reminds me of a story about a famous producer and a top studio drummer here in LA.
The producer asked for a drum fill at the mod, and the drummer said... ok, I'll do a fill at the modulation.
And the producer replied... It's not a modulation, you idiot...it's a key change.

You can't make this stuff up...
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Joachim Kettner


From:
Germany
Post  Posted 10 May 2019 11:03 pm     Kitty
Reply with quote

There's an interesting key change in the Cat Stevens song "Kitty". It's in F# than in the chorus it shifts to a-minor. I find this quite amazing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDPlxeLHazI
_________________
Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Charlie McDonald


From:
out of the blue
Post  Posted 11 May 2019 7:43 am    
Reply with quote

I can't say I've ever parsed these songs, because they're pretty good, but he's a smart whippersnapper to think to do it.
Surely for the most part, whether Wilson or Lennon, they sat down at the piano and found the chords they were looking for. Not so much schooling. Which was great.
Yeah, we don't do that much, those kinds of modulations, any more. Must've been part of the times.

Kind of like bossa nova, and I must say that's a different kind of change too, following traditions, when these tunes broke tradition somewhat.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Michael Holland


From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Post  Posted 12 May 2019 5:52 pm    
Reply with quote

"This Diamond Ring" has a brilliant modulation. The intro and verse are in Cm. Then it modulates to F# for the chorus and goes back and forth. It's the brilliant work of the Wrecking Crew, co-writer Al Kooper and producer Snuff Garrett. Mid-sixties pop at its best complete with a six-string bass solo.
_________________
"I am certain of nothing", Anthony Bourdain
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 15 May 2019 3:44 pm    
Reply with quote

The only one that doesn’t bang you over the head and say “Hi I’m changing keys now” is God Only Knows. Maybe because God only knows what key that song is actually in to begin with.

The way Lucy In The Sky changes rhythm is more interesting to me than the modulation, and it’s even more blatantly obvious.

But the kid does a good job ‘splainin’ stuff.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Mel Bergman


From:
Camarillo, California, USA
Post  Posted 16 May 2019 8:15 am    
Reply with quote

Thanks for all this gold everyone. I’ve been working on songs for my bands new album, and this is inspiring. And Brian Wilson having an A#m7(b5) is, well, way beyond my comprehension. But to quote Vanilla Ice, “I don’t know what it is but I like it alot”
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Bob Watson


From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
Post  Posted 17 May 2019 1:24 am    
Reply with quote

I've never analyzed it but the Grateful Dead song "Box Of Rain" has a really clever fleeting key change in it. Also, there is a Little Feat song on the "Down On The Farm" album called "Be One Now" that has some very cool modulations in it. If you're not familiar with that album, Sneaky Pete is on a few tunes contributing to the magic of the record! Cool video Andy, thanks for posting this!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Joachim Kettner


From:
Germany
Post  Posted 19 May 2019 6:36 am    
Reply with quote

Not über-invetive but still good:
"You Don't have To say You Love Me" one step up.
"The End Of The world" a half step up.
_________________
Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Andy Volk


From:
Boston, MA
Post  Posted 20 May 2019 12:01 pm    
Reply with quote

Some more analysis of Brian Wilson's music. Unfortunately, the author of this didn't put his name on it ...


Quote:
Brian seemed to move the tonal center of the songs in an effortless way that defies traditional theory. Case in point “GIRLS ON THE BEACH” which has a verse that starts in Eb with a traditional I/ vi/ ii/ V7 or Eb/ C-7th/ F-7th/ Bb7th, followed by 3 notes from “WHEN YOU WISH UPON A STAR” for these chords- Eb/ C7th/ F-7th/ then a surprise chord Ab-6th which is the iii of the new key of E maj7th/ C#-7th/ E maj7th/ C#-7th/ A/ F#-7th/ Bb7th. The bridge is the iii to the vi of Eb twice and then a ii-V back to the last verse with a twist. It is Eb/ C-7th/ F-7th/ Bb7/ then up a tritone to E maj7th/ C#7th/ F#-7th/A-6th/ down a 3rd to yet another key-F maj7th/D-7th/ F maj7th/ D-7th/Bbmaj7th/G-7th/ and now a ii-V7(F#-7 B7)out of F and back into E for the tag which is I/ iii/vi/ii or Emaj7th/G#-7th/C#-7th/F#11.

“DON’T WORRY BABY” and “GIRLS ON THE BEACH” are just 2 examples of Brian’s songs that shift keys. It has been a long standing tradition in standards such as “BODY AND SOUL”, “GOD BLESS THE CHILD”, “MORE THAN YOU KNOW” and “WHEN SUNNY GET”S BLUE” for the bridge to move to a different key and then resolve back for the last verse. Brian’s way of doing this can be more complex, sometimes changing keys after the first 4 bars and in “THIS WHOLE WORLD(1970) changing keys again after the next 4 bars and again after the next 2, 4 and which ended up adding to the oddities of Pet Sounds and SMiLE every /3/ Bars.

_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 21 May 2019 9:37 pm    
Reply with quote

Andy Volk wrote:
Some more analysis of Brian Wilson's music. Unfortunately, the author of this didn't put his name on it ...


Quote:
Brian seemed to move the tonal center of the songs in an effortless way that defies traditional theory. Case in point “GIRLS ON THE BEACH” which has a verse that starts in Eb with a traditional I/ vi/ ii/ V7 or Eb/ C-7th/ F-7th/ Bb7th, followed by 3 notes from “WHEN YOU WISH UPON A STAR” for these chords- Eb/ C7th/ F-7th/ then a surprise chord Ab-6th which is the iii of the new key of E maj7th/ C#-7th/ E maj7th/ C#-7th/ A/ F#-7th/ Bb7th. The bridge is the iii to the vi of Eb twice and then a ii-V back to the last verse with a twist. It is Eb/ C-7th/ F-7th/ Bb7/ then up a tritone to E maj7th/ C#7th/ F#-7th/A-6th/ down a 3rd to yet another key-F maj7th/D-7th/ F maj7th/ D-7th/Bbmaj7th/G-7th/ and now a ii-V7(F#-7 B7)out of F and back into E for the tag which is I/ iii/vi/ii or Emaj7th/G#-7th/C#-7th/F#11.

Remaining anonymous was probably the best idea the author had there.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 22 May 2019 2:12 am    
Reply with quote

Good though the video is, I'm fairly certain that the processes described were not occurring in the minds of the songwriters, who would have been tinkering at the piano or strumming a guitar and not thinking theoretically at all.

As a teenager I used to listen to learnèd radio broadcasts unpicking the symphonies of the great composers, and although they might have offered insight into their mental processes, I'm not sure how much of those processes was conscious.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 22 May 2019 5:47 am    
Reply with quote

I agree, Ian. So many of his songs follow 1-6-2-5 or 1-4-5, Brian Wilson would simply try to color his melody note with a different sounding chord, like substituting ii with bIII. If a substitute chord led him into a new key, he just went with it.

There is also no denying the brilliant use of polychords and counterpoint in Beach Boys vocal arrangements, which Wilson has attributed to his appreciation for other great pop vocal arrangers of the 50’s and 60’s era rather than endless hours of scholarly study. Hey, which method is more fun, right?
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Charlie McDonald


From:
out of the blue
Post  Posted 22 May 2019 11:09 am    
Reply with quote

Quote:
Eb/ C-7th/ F-7th/ Bb7/ then up a tritone to E maj7th/ C#7th/ F#-7th/A-6th/ down a 3rd to yet another key-F maj7th/D-7th/ F maj7th/ D-7th/Bbmaj7th/G-7th/ and now a ii-V7(F#-7 B7)


Yeah I knew that.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Jump to:  

Our Online Catalog
Strings, CDs, instruction,
steel guitars & accessories

www.SteelGuitarShopper.com

Please review our Forum Rules and Policies

Steel Guitar Forum LLC
PO Box 237
Mount Horeb, WI 53572 USA


Click Here to Send a Donation

Email admin@steelguitarforum.com for technical support.


BIAB Styles
Ray Price Shuffles for
Band-in-a-Box

by Jim Baron
HTTP