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Topic: Ben Keith’s style |
James Lewis
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 27 Apr 2019 1:58 pm |
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Hello, I’ve been playing steel for a couple weeks now and am working on the usual stuff - blocking, changes, the volume pedal, general technique, etc.
I got into steel largely because of Ben Keith’s work with Neil Young. I really like his haunting, minimal style.
At home I’m playing through a GFI Expo X1 4+3 through a blackface non-Reverb Princeton and a Celestion Blue. I use my fingers in lieu of finger picks. Sometimes I run it through a tape delay for fun but I’m trying not to fall into the effects trap. Just sticking to a volume pedal for now!
I’ve noticed that he likes to use simple single or two note lines in just the right spot. When he does it it sounds nice and fat. When I do it it sounds hollow, like it’s missing something, though triads sound really good on my rig.
I realize there might be subtle changes I can make with my home setup to get closer to his sound, but I’m not really worried about that right now. What I would like to know is if there are specific techniques or lessons I can work on to get my single notes sounding fuller. I realize that to a large extent this comes with time, but I just want to make sure I don’t lose focus on how to make a bigger sound with less, say with picking technique or something.
I’d also like to know if anyone had noticed any other idiosyncrasies in Ben’s style that I should listen for, especially im regards to why and when he picks the notes he picks.
Thanks in advance! |
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Brian Hollands
From:
Geneva, FL USA
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Posted 27 Apr 2019 2:50 pm
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You'll need some reverb
_________________
'81 Sho-bud LDG, 2 EMCI's |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 27 Apr 2019 4:55 pm
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Picking farther from the bridge will make the sounds fuller - try picking between 6" and 8" from the bridge. In addition, thicker picks, and picks with more rounded tips, will add to the fullness of the notes. On the electrical side, to get a fuller sound, don't use lo-cap cables like the George-L's. (They're designed for maximum highs.) Sometimes an (inexpensive) longer cable between the guitar and pedal will also help to tame the highs. Turning down the mids may help too.
Sorry...dumb me. I just noticed you're using a Princeton amp!? Generally, that won't cut it for pedal steel - too little power and very little in the way of tone sculpting capability. (Pedal steelers normally use fairly powerful amps.) |
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James Lewis
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 27 Apr 2019 8:54 pm
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The Princeton rig is just for my living room. I’ve got a Kendrick tweed Twin and an old Super Reverb I can hook up to some cabs with Altec speakers in the practice space, but I’m not really worried about messing with that stuff until I progress a little more at home.
| Brian Hollands wrote: |
| You'll need some reverb |
Good call! |
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Henry Nagle
From:
Santa Rosa, California
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Posted 28 Apr 2019 4:19 am
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Ben Keith is one of my favorite players too. His playing has always been an inspiration to me, even before I started playing steel.
I agree with the others that a little reverb can really help. Especially if you're playing on your own at home. Maybe it's a crutch. I've learned to be ok with that.
I don't use picks either. I do wish I could play both ways. I just never put in the work. You get a clarity and attack with picks that is really difficult to get consistently with your fingers alone. That said, I think picking with fingers sounds fine, and "pick" blocking - muting notes with your fingertips as you play, came pretty naturally for me without picks. I think the biggest pitfall to look out for when not using picks is that the low end can be percussive sounding and muddy up your attack and tone. The pads of your fingers give an unappealing thump that picks don't. I try to keep the bass turned down on my amp, just to the point where the useless low end "thud" goes away. If you are able to record yourself, do so and listen for that frequency in your tone.
Adding to what Donny said, I would experiment with where you are picking relative to the bridge. Just play one long note over and over again, adjusting where you pick the string and the angle and attitude that you pick it with. Listen to whether vibrato is sounding good or not. Listen to the way the sustain deteriorates as you change your attack. Don't be afraid to slow way down and listen to nuances. I'm sure Ben would approve 
I'm not too familiar with GFI guitars. Does yours have a humbucking pickup? I never had much luck getting a good clear tone with a humbucker. I have a friend who uses picks and he sounds great with a humbucker. The picks bring out that clear singing tone. It helps that he's an excellent player. I find a single coil pickup gets me closer to my desired tone.
If you have any opportunities to try out other guitars, go for it. I was fortunate to start with a good ZB Custom pedal steel. I didn't realize how lucky I was. I spent a lot of years and a lot of nice guitars trying to recapture that sound. All good experiences, but I still think a ZB has the best tone for me. Ben Keith played an old Emmons. I had an Emmons for a minute and I could not get a good sound. Clearly that is my own issue. ZBs and Sho~Buds seem to suit me best. I've tried some more modern guitars too.. Williams, Fessenden, Kline. None of them sounded bad, but I had to work harder to get the tone I was after. Tone remains a joyful mystery for me, but I'm happy with what I have now.
Regarding Ben Keith's style, I'm sure you've noticed that on Neil Young's recordings he seems to only appear when his notes lift the song somehow. He'll sit out until the tension of the song is ready for him, and then he'll play something beautiful, and usually very simple. Much of Young's music lends itself to this dramatic and measured approach. My other favorite player is Ralph Mooney, and that guy could play heavily throughout a song and sound gorgeous the entire time. He wouldn't have done that on Harvest though. Moon and Keith both had a great feel for finding the pocket and the tension in a song, and staying true to it. Always listen for opportunities to not play. I remember breaking a string mid-song. As I hurried to replace it and get back to playing, I couldn't help but notice that the band was sounding really good without me. I still struggle to hear when to not play. I'll never be Ben Keith, but I'm closer when I shut up for a minute.
Oh, one more thing - on an old Fender amp the #2 input has a lower gain. I find this input works much much better for pedal steel guitar. Steel pickups tend to be relatively hot and the lower gain gives you a bit more headroom. It actually thins your attack, but it gives your sustain more room to bloom, and that is usually where the sweetness is, I believe. I think this can be especially important when you're playing without picks.
Last edited by Henry Nagle on 28 Apr 2019 4:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tim Sheinman
From:
Brighton, UK
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Posted 28 Apr 2019 4:35 am
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Hi James, would you consider putting up a little video of your playing so we can give you some more concrete feedback? Something simple shot on a phone would be fine.
_________________
Williams Ext.E9, ToneTron, Hilton |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 May 2019 8:18 pm
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Congrats on sticking by your guns using your fingers.
For more definition on the thumb, you could also try small thumb picks with fingers. The skin on the side of your thumb is still usable for muting.
And since you are playing a lot of single lines, try a flatpick with fingers.
You will need to adjust your rig for more definition.
This is not the traditional way to play pedal steel. Don’t be put off by forum traditionalists.
Ben has to deal with Neal’s wall of distortion. (On electric tunes). I am sure he arrived at his style after much experimentation.
Have fun. John |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 May 2019 11:15 am
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| Ben Keith was a great musician, but he also was a gifted record producer. When you have that ear, for knowing how each part of a song fits together and where it is supposed to sit in the mix for maximum effect, the result will make it seem like the part can be played no other way, and with no other tone. I don’t think this type of idiosyncrasy can be taught or explained, it can only be experienced. |
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Bill Quinn
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Posted 4 Jun 2020 9:53 am
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| I’m curious what happened to Ben Keith’s Emmons , if he had a stock Emmons pickup what it was wound to |
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Pete Finney
From:
Nashville Tn.
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Posted 4 Jun 2020 11:42 am
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| Bill Quinn wrote: |
| I’m curious what happened to Ben Keith’s Emmons |
It's on display at the Musician's Hall of Fame here (not the Country Music HOF).
A couple of thoughts:
A lot of what we tend to think of when talking about Ben's playing with Neil is from "Harvest," right, even though there are many other recordings over ensuing decades. Ben ended up on those sessions at the last minute, barely knowing who Neil was, so it's not like he'd worked out how he was gonna play. He no doubt intuited from the songs and what the other players were doing that "less is more" and he definitely got that feedback from Neil himself, according to Neil later on. This was well before Ben's success as a producer (he told me he bought an island with the royalties he made from producing Jewel's first album; 15 million copies!)
One common way to make sustained single notes sound "fat" is to play a unison on two strings; the 5th string pulled to a C# and the 2nd lowered to C# for instance. Extremely elementary I know, but that's what you're hearing on the chorus of "Out on the Weekend," for example. If you haven't tried that put on the track and play along and see.
You can get close to Ben Keith's sound and feel on a GFI; that's not the issue IMHO. It's the approach and the attack.
I personally would agree that a plastic thumbpick would be good to try if you're not using one. Playing the typical "Ben with Neil" thing without metal fingerpicks doesn't seem like a problem at all; again IMHO. |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2020 12:26 pm ...and...
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Big Ben played through a silverface Twin Reverb Amp...I suspect his pickup was stock and probably wound to about 17.5...pretty standard for a late 60s Emmons guitar...it has a wooden neck and thus a"bolt on"tail piece...
I had a chance to examine Ben's steel when his daughter called me soon after his passing and asked me to set it up for an exhibit at the TN State Museum...
It is set up"Emmons split"and has one knee lever on it that lowers the Es to Eb...
The bolt heads that are visible on the front apron are on some sort of turnbuckles...my guess is to help with"cabinet drop"(whatever that is)...
Ben used the old type Sho~Bud volume pedal...
In addition to working with Neil,Ben can be heard on many records by other artists...my favorite is"Danny's Song"by Anne Murray...
I had a chance to meet and talk to Brian Ahern(producer)...when a mutual friend intoduced me to him as a"steel player",he said"I guess you want to know about Ben Keith!"
Brian told me that Ben had used another steel that sounded much better,but was stolen at some point...I know he did in fact have a Sho~Bud that was stolen,but was never recovered.
You can hear Big Ben on Stop Records with The Kendalls,Ringo Starr on"Beaucoups of Blues"(whole album),several early Emmylou Harris records,and all kinds of other stuff...
SH |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2020 12:44 pm
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re: the unison lick on"Out on the Weekend...
"that's what you're hearing on the chorus of "Out on the Weekend"
Actually,that unison thing would have been done on the second and fourth strings with the fourth lowered to Eb...Ben's guitar doesn't have the second string lower on it...
SH |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 4 Jun 2020 12:53 pm
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Bad photo, a quick shot of Ben’s Emmons when I visited the Musician’s Hall of Fame Museum in Nashville last summer.
The last time I saw Ben Keith play live was a number of years ago in San Francisco at Hardly Strictly Bluegrass.
He was in Pegi Young’s band. No disrespect intended to the memory of Neil’s late former wife, the main reason I was at that stage was to see Big Ben Keith.
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Mark |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2020 1:23 pm
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Mike Holder
From:
Alabama! Home of the great “Don Helms” & his singer “Hank Williams”!
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Posted 4 Jun 2020 3:49 pm
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Ben also played with Faron Young and you witness a much different type of playing from him he in this era, He’s a great player who found his own voice!
_________________
I thought Nashville was the roughest, but I know I’ve said the same about them all.
I received my education, drivin through the Nation listenin to Paul!.. ( Franklin that is! ) |
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Brendan Mitchell
From:
Melbourne Australia
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Posted 4 Jun 2020 6:19 pm
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| Mike Holder wrote: |
| Ben also played with Faron Young and you witness a much different type of playing from him he in this era, He’s a great player who found his own voice! |
Hey Mike could you link some cuts he did with Faron Young? |
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Mike Holder
From:
Alabama! Home of the great “Don Helms” & his singer “Hank Williams”!
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Posted 4 Jun 2020 6:30 pm
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I honestly don’t know how, perhaps Pete Finney or Steve Hinson would oblige us. Apologies for my lack of ingenuity!!
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I thought Nashville was the roughest, but I know I’ve said the same about them all.
I received my education, drivin through the Nation listenin to Paul!.. ( Franklin that is! ) |
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Glenn Suchan
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 4 Jun 2020 7:12 pm
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| Brendan Mitchell wrote: |
| Mike Holder wrote: |
| Ben also played with Faron Young and you witness a much different type of playing from him he in this era, He’s a great player who found his own voice! |
Hey Mike could you link some cuts he did with Faron Young? |
Brendan, search YouTube for Faron Young's song, "Country Girl" from the early 1960's (I think). It has some wonderful steel picking by Ben Keith.
Keep on pickin'!
Glenn
_________________
Steelin' for Jesus |
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Rich Sullivan
From:
Nelson, NH 03457
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Jun 2020 5:37 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Ben Keith was a great musician, but he also was a gifted record producer. When you have that ear, for knowing how each part of a song fits together and where it is supposed to sit in the mix for maximum effect, the result will make it seem like the part can be played no other way, and with no other tone. I don’t think this type of idiosyncrasy can be taught or explained, it can only be experienced. |
I agree fully. When players try to copy the style of another, what's most important is getting inside the mind of that player. As an example, most of Ralph Mooney's stuff is dirt-simple, but it's hard to emulate if you can't think like Mooney. It's not in the guitar or the tuning, it's the thought process the player has. |
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Pete Finney
From:
Nashville Tn.
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Posted 6 Jun 2020 7:02 am
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There's a film of a concert at the Ryman Auditorium in 2005 where you can see Ben in action with Neil; he's very visible and there are some great close-ups. He's interviewed as well, I think. Worth checking out if you're studying his playing. It's available on DVD, and might be streaming somewhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Young:_Heart_of_Gold |
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Bill Cunningham
From:
Atlanta, Ga. USA
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