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Topic: Is the C pedal really necessary (or even desired)? |
Greg Cutshaw
From: Corry, PA, USA
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J R Rose
From: Keota, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2019 7:41 am
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In my early years I used only a KL to raise the 4th E to F#.
No 3rd or C pedal. I was learning from a friend that played Ralph Mooney tuning and played it well. He said that was a part of Mooney's sound. After a short time I decided I wanted the going thing out of Nashville and that was with the C pedal. So I added a C pedal!! I sometimes still miss that raise but I use that lever for things I like better. Thanks, J.R. Rose _________________ NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose |
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Dave Mudgett
From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 26 Apr 2019 7:49 am
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I don't think it's absolutely necessary. But I would not lose the C pedal. There's more there than just using with the B pedal to get the ii chord (F#min on the open strings), such as high-sounding harmonized scales used so effectively by players like John Hughey. The C pedal can be a very dramatic change.
Decisions about how to set up a pedal steel always involve tradeoffs, because once you fully load up a steel as much as you can, then getting additional capabilities is a zero-sum game - to gain one, you must lose something else.
To me, it's about what specific musical uses I have for a particular pedal or lever. I also think about whether or not there's another way to get the same thing without a pedal or lever, e.g., using a slant or a half pedal. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Ian Rae
From: Redditch, England
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Posted 26 Apr 2019 11:41 am
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Bear in mind that the C pedal started life as a means of lowering the 3rd and 6th strings, back in the pull-release days when 3&6 were already being raised by the B pedal so could not be directly lowered as well. The C pedal and sliding back two frets is probably a lost art now everything is all-pull, but it's there in Winnie's book.
Likewise we tend to think of P7 on the D10 as raising 3&4 but it's equally a means of lowering 5&6 a whole step. _________________ Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Lynn Kasdorf
From: Waterford Virginia, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2019 3:04 pm
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I play a lot of old style pedal steel, and I couldn't get by without B&C. And for me, I often stab the pedals pretty quickly (like Mooney), so it wouldn't be the same on a lever. I also use it to get a unison with the 1st and 4th strings. I do that to a disturbing degree. _________________ "You call that thing a guitar?" |
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Bobby D. Jones
From: West Virginia, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2019 9:52 pm Is The C Pedal Necessary
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In all his years in Nashville Mr. Green used his C pedal and bar slants to record licks that many of us are still trying to find. It allows use of strings 4&6 instead of 3&5 to do licks that add so much to a song.
There seems to be a lot of uses for the C pedal. I have found some uses and still hunting for other ways. |
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Ian Rae
From: Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Apr 2019 12:17 am
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Of course when I mentioned scales on 3 & 4 that's equally true of 4 & 6 _________________ Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Ken Byng
From: Southampton, England
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Posted 27 Apr 2019 6:34 am
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I sat right in front of Lloyd at Jeff Surratt's garden party, and I was very surprised at how often he was using his C pedal. _________________ Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
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Pete Burak
From: Portland, OR USA
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Posted 27 Apr 2019 6:35 am
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I played without a C-pedal for a few years.
There are alot of other positions to play licks that are very C-pedal-ee sounding.
I put string-4 E-to-F# on RKL2 (I was in a Swing Band at the time and changed the C-pedal to raise B's-to-C, on my Uni).
It worked great for alot country, jamband, and singer/songwriter-ee stuff where you are in the AB position and then bring in the E-to-F# with a lever.
You can't activate/deactivate it as fast as a pedal.
The best thing about it was that it made it impossible to play the traditional C-pedal stylings. I felt it was an advantage at the time.
Later I got into a traditional country band and needed to play super-hard-blocking Chickin'-Pickin' E9th style, so I added the C-pedal back.
Anything remotely like 6 Days On The Road is C-pedal territioy.
The C-pedal by itself is makes for some great slide-able stacked 4th's licks in strings-4+5, on songs like Bad Weather by Poco, and many others (similar to putting your finger on strings 1-2 of guitar and sliding them up and down the neck to the correct fret positions). |
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James Mayer
From: back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 29 Apr 2019 8:22 am
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I'm going to try out some new things with the C pedal and make no modifications, for now. I'll take a look at Greg Cutshaw's licks when I have some time. Thanks for the input. |
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Bob Carlucci
From: Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2019 12:28 pm
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I suppose that you could get along without the 3rd pedal, and just keep the E-F# 4th string raise on a knee lever, but really its pointless.. You would gain a few intriguing moves by having the change separate, but you would lose just as many by having them separate... I say leave it where it is... 90% of us use it and like it just as it is... personally, I would be totally lost without it.. I use it a LOT... bob _________________ I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Pete Bailey
From: Seattle, WA
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Posted 29 Apr 2019 1:19 pm
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I would not consider getting rid of my C pedal.
If you have a B-lower lever and a split G# lower lever on your guitar, there are no fewer than FIVE good options for a 2m chord within +/-2 frets of your open position.
Even so, I often find myself heading for those BC pedals when none of the other ones will do. YMMV of course! |
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Bill Moran
From: Virginia, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2019 3:19 pm
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Two names come to mind. John Huey and Lloyd Green. Their music speaks for itself even if we can't figure it out ? lol _________________ Bill |
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MIchael Bean
From: North Of Boston
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Bobby Nelson
From: North Carolina, USA
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Jack Stanton
From: Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
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Posted 1 May 2019 5:06 am
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I remember back in the early 80s when Jeff Newman at his Armpit Clothesline newsletter and had just started working with Paul Franklin, Jeff wrote an article stating the C pedal was unnecessary. In the same issue Paul wrote an article and tabbed out an intro he had just done on the latest George Strait album, which of course was done with the B & C pedals. To each their own. |
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Pete Burak
From: Portland, OR USA
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Posted 1 May 2019 8:19 am
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I came across a good one today while noodlin' around...
Band On The Run! - Paul McCartney
Play a DMaj7 chord strings 8,6,5 at 5A
Sing, Stuck inside these four walls, (string-4 is your reference note)...
Then right after the word Walls, pick strings 4 and 5 together pretty hard at fret-5 and go on-and-off the C-pedal by itself Seven times, in the feeling of the original guitar lick, pretty quick.
Go to fret-3 and play and Open-G chord on 8,6,5.
Sing, Sent inside forever,
Then go on-and-off the C-pedal by itself on strings 4 and 5 together at fret 3, again, seven times pretty quickly in the feeling of the original.
The song goes on from there with the same chords, and I find that that C-pedal style is extremely fun to play!
The last two chords at the end of the verse, following the the words, Like You... are G-minors, which of all things are simply one fret up from the 5A DMaj7, at 6A.
By going on-off and sliding up/down you can get alot of milage out of that quick string-4-5 C-pedal style, and I think I can extrapolate this usage to other songs.
Last edited by Pete Burak on 1 May 2019 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jim Fogarty
From: Phila, Pa, USA
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Posted 1 May 2019 11:36 am
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I love the C pedal. Just was messing with this lick, where (in A/B pedals down position) you bend the 1st string to get quick 7ths.......then bounce the C pedal with your right foot to get quick unisons on the 4th and 1st string. Kinda Moon-y.
https://www.facebook.com/jimfog/videos/10217436046068528/
(PS....you don't have to be on Facebook to view it!) |
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Steve Hinson
From: Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 1 May 2019 4:18 pm
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Gotta have the"C"pedal! |
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Steve Leal
From: Orange CA, USA
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Posted 1 May 2019 5:40 pm
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I suggest lowering your Bs (strings 5 and 10) a half tone to Bb. This lever in combination with A pedal and raising Es to Fs gives you the AB to BC notes (one fret up fro AB position). I like this change better than raising Es to F# and better than lowering G#s to G on strings 3 and 6 to get the 6 minor cord smoothly.
C pedal is too important to sacrifice in my opinion. |
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Franklin
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Posted 2 May 2019 5:18 am
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Hi James,
My 2 cents:
Depends on how you view pedals.....I see them as a means to bend notes into other notes.....When I eliminate pedals I can still play my guitar.... I just can't bend chords into other chords, as in tune with slants, because most three note slants are impossible to get in tune.
The major scale ascends and it descends.....True for every style of music
C D E F G A B C
Play the major scale ascending as chords (Its called diatonic harmony) gives us:
C Dm Em F G Am Bdim C .....Diatonics are the harmonies prominent in todays music across genres.
So if I want to bend a diatonic scale ascending up the neck using strings 3 4 5 or strings 4 5 & 6 at the 8th fret (The root chord position).... The C pedal has to be there or its impossible to play......This Walk Of Life solo shows how the C pedal works melodically and it also shows how using diatonic harmonies opens up so many melodic possibilities....
Solo starts @ 4:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p30NV97_MFQ
To understand Jeff's C pedal view we should always remember Jeff, only taught the harmonies used in songs like "Crazy Arms" which was found in traditional Country music and still prominent in that early 70's time period.....Basically if it wasn't in Jeff's harmonic windshield, he saw no reason to learn anything else. His car was headed down a single musical road towards the Country Shuffles and Ballads he loved playing... Please understand, Jeff's teachings apply to a specific point in time.
Paul |
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David LeBlanc
From: New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted 3 May 2019 2:15 am
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My 1 cent (Canadian money) It all depends on the music you listen to. I listen to old and some new country. I try (and try) to reproduce what I hear. And to me,if Mr Paul Franklin & Mr Mike Johnson, Mr Lloyd Green, Mr Buddy Emmons, Mr John Huey,..... play or played with the C pedal, then I need it to . Dave |
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Sonny Jenkins
From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 3 May 2019 6:06 am
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So,,,what I get from Paul's post is,,,if that era of country music is what floats your boat,,,if Jeff's windshield is the road you want to see,,,then no,,the C pedal is not "AS" necessary,,,,but,,if you are a session player,,,or "on call" to produce any type of music,,,then yes, the more pedal choices you have the better.
I must say though that, I have a lot of Jeff's material,,,and there are a lot of C pedal stuff in them.
A question of,,,,how deep do you want to dive? |
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James Mayer
From: back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 3 May 2019 10:17 am
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At this point, I've made a few efforts to find uses for the C pedal and have decided to keep it (and keep exploring). It's not going anywhere for now.
I do like the sound unison notes on strings 1 & 4.
Paul, I wish I could see your feet on the Dire Straights clip. |
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