| Author |
Topic: Did Buddy Emmons ruin the Pedal Steel? |
Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
|
Posted 22 Apr 2019 5:52 pm |
|
| In my opinion. No. Others have pretty much covered my feelings about Emmons. Not my intent to start a topic drift. But I have often wondered if the A&B pedal sound, Example, Intro to Slowly. Has not held pedal steel back more than anything. It sounded corny to me even back then. But every one, Emmons included flipped over that sound. Seems to me, steel guitar was much more accepted in 40's and early 50's as a pop, swing, even jazz instrument than after it got pigeon holed by Nashville for the corny sounding A&B pedal sound. But I'm just thinking out loud. |
|
|
|
forrest klott
From:
Grand Rapids Mi USA
|
Posted 22 Apr 2019 5:59 pm
|
|
Yes, Buddy Emmons inspires me! He has since I was sixteen and discovered my mom’s copy of The Ernest Tubb Story on vinyl in the closet, and I’m now 46. He continues to inspire me every time I listen to any of the five Ray Price cd’s that never leave the player in my truck. The sixth slot holds the Black Album. When Buddy passed, I wept as hard as I did when my own father passed.
Thank you, maestro, for the legacy you left us!
Skeeter |
|
|
|
Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
|
Posted 22 Apr 2019 7:36 pm
|
|
Sorry, but I had to go back to the original post date to see if it was April 1st. 😄
Jerry
_________________
http://www.littleoprey.org/ |
|
|
|
Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
|
Posted 22 Apr 2019 8:19 pm
|
|
Did Buddy Emmons ruin Pedal Steel?
Yes. And Sandy Koufax ruined pitching. The Marx Brothers ruined comedy. Sophia Loren ruined beauty. And bacon ruined pig.
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
|
|
|
Anthony Lis
From:
South Dakota, USA
|
Posted 22 Apr 2019 8:57 pm
|
|
| Be wary of cults in general and cults that grow up around figures (musical or otherwise); they do no one any good. I'm sure this will offend some; sorry , just the way I see it. No, I don't play steel, for what its worth. I think some excellent points were made in Tim's original post. |
|
|
|
Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
|
Posted 22 Apr 2019 9:55 pm
|
|
| Anthony Lis wrote: |
| Be wary of cults in general and cults that grow up around figures (musical or otherwise); they do no one any good. I'm sure this will offend some; sorry , just the way I see it. No, I don't play steel, for what its worth. I think some excellent points were made in Tim's original post. |
Still smarting from Mount Rushmore I suppose....
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
|
|
|
Tim Sheinman
From:
Brighton, UK
|
Posted 22 Apr 2019 10:29 pm
|
|
Thanks for that Brooks, top quality input - respectful, insightful, smart.
I'd like to address a similar point made by a few, namely.
'Did Parker ruin Jazz, Koufax ruin baseball etc'.
The position being taken here is that the answer is ovious, as these are 'greats' and thus beyond reproach. By comparing Emmons to them, the conclusion is firstly that the answer is obviously no and secondly, you can't damage a field when you're so great in it.
I'm going to rebut this, pretty conclusively I think.
1. All these people worked in different disciplines, some difficult to compare, such as sport to music. There is a big difference between being great at baseball and being great at art. Also Bacon does ruin a pig. Literally.
2. Their reputations are not unassailable. People's professional legacy does change and are not set in stone.
3. Just because people were 'greats' in their field, doesn't mean they didn't set in motion, or otherwise help create cultures (or cults of personality) that proved problematic in the long run.
Parker's legacy in Jazz is complex, partly because of the way BeBop has taken hold of improvisation studies in college courses, but mostly because he glamorised the use of heroin among jazz musicians and actually initiated major players into the culture. He wasn't the first, but he was the icon and the focal point.
Some sort of conclusion
Underneath all of this is a strong element of 'Beethoven was wrong'. This was a line delivered by 20th Century composer John Cage. His thesis was that Beethoven had helped cement of culture of 'goal' based music, i.e. music that had to go somewhere, which he countered with more slowly evolving music, without fixed goals. This has been enormously influential on electronic, modern classical and ambient music, as well as affecting nearly every other genre. In the end, his point worked as a starting point for innovation, even for those that liked Beethoven.
The point being that it's not wrong to examine the effects of one 'greats' legacy, in order to work out the positive and the negative. Trying to create a canon of unassailable greats who are to be defended at all costs however, just shuts out innovation.
_________________
Williams Ext.E9, ToneTron, Hilton |
|
|
|
Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
|
Posted 22 Apr 2019 10:33 pm
|
|
Tim,
I must respectfully disagree with the four points you made.
Rather than engage in a meaningless philosophical debate, I'll let the man himself prove otherwise...
Please take a look at this 2006 video of Buddy Emmons playing a beautiful melody he composed (“A Nameless Shuffleâ€), with Laney Hicks singing lyrics she wrote to his melody, called “A Love Like Thisâ€:
"Buddy Emmons - Laney Hicks - Operation Russless- Nameless Shuffle"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ij3_YxSEpA
I don’t hear flashy “chopsâ€, hot licks, or overplaying from Buddy. What I do hear is a true master of the steel guitar making his instrument sing—as if it is another soulful vocalist (or two) singing with Laney.
I have watched this clip many times, and every time I do, it feels like a magical “out of body†musical experience, where it seems that two people are musically entwined as one mind.
This is a rare phenomenon, but Buddy accomplished it many, many times in his career-- with Ray Price, Judy Collins, Ray Charles, and so many more.
Now watch the faces of the people on stage during Buddy’s two solos—so many great steel players and master musicians all intently watching Buddy’s every move, mesmerized by the beauty of his playing and his exquisite musical taste, tone, and touch.
There are many great steel players out there, but Buddy Emmons set the bar so high in so many genres and styles—country, folk, Western Swing, Big Band, jazz, be-bop, etc. that I can think of no one who has ever surpassed him—and I doubt if anyone ever will.
And as Mike Johnson said (shortly before Buddy passed away) on a 2015 TV show that was a tribute to Ray Price, not only was Buddy a great player, he developed much of the tuning and pedal changes that everyone uses today. (And if that wasn’t enough, he was involved in building two of the most legendary steel guitars in history: Sho-Bud and Emmons guitars.)
As Mike Johnson said (with Buddy in the audience), “He’s the best steel guitar player who ever walked on Earth…The man is brilliant...â€.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-9g0okYkCM
I couldn’t have said it better--Buddy Emmons was a musical genius.
What are your thoughts?
- Dave |
|
|
|
Tim Sheinman
From:
Brighton, UK
|
Posted 22 Apr 2019 10:54 pm
|
|
Hi Dave, here are my thoughts.
I'm afraid you've missed my points.
I have absolutely no issue with saying that Emmons was a great player. In fact, he's one of my favourite. He is probably the all round best player to play the instrument, just as Django was the greatest to play the Maccaferi.
What I am saying is that the musical and critical culture surrounding Emmons created problematic elements for steel guitar as a whole.
Case point, I said
'Emmons' genius means that the genre of PSG has stagnated in trying to constantly emulate him'
You said;
| Quote: |
| There are many great steel players out there, but Buddy Emmons set the bar so high in so many genres and styles—country, folk, Western Swing, Big Band, jazz, be-bop, etc. that I can think of no one who has ever surpassed him—and I doubt if anyone ever will. |
Kind of proved my point for me, haven't you. 
_________________
Williams Ext.E9, ToneTron, Hilton |
|
|
|
Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 2:24 am
|
|
Well Tim, as a fellow Brit I had to have a quiet chuckle at your slightly provocative topic, but interesting viewpoint. All Buddy has been guilty of is to change the direction of modern pedal steel. Lets look at his achievements.
1. While there had been previous players to point the steel guitar into the direction of jazz and swing, Buddy's Steel Guitar Jazz was probably the first bona fide exercise in jazz virtuosity on steel guitar.
2. Buddy was responsible for the birth of two classic pedal steel guitars - i.e. Sho~Bud and Emmons. Both makes are still revered for their classic tone and many, many of these guitars are still being used and enjoyed today. For me, Buddy was the Leo Fender of pedal steel guitar, and I acknowledge Shot Jackson and Ron Lashley Snr in that particular leg of Buddy's journey.
3. Many people associate Buddy purely with the 2 'chromatic' strings on E9, but there was much more. Buddy along with Jimmy Day and Ralph Mooney shaped the basic E9 open tuning, but the modern C6 tuning and pedal set up was mainly down to Buddy. His musical brain gave him the ability to introduce the C6 changes that are still very much in use today.
4. Buddy was so much more than a dynamic and exceptionally fast player. He had real soul, and could wring levels of emotion from the instrument that very few other players could emulate. His legacy of recordings is extensive and diverse.
Really Tim, it is a little unfair to apportion blame on Buddy for being an innovator of the highest order. It is down to nearly everyone else for using Buddy's tunings and his music direction. It could be that Buddy got it all right in the first place. Pedal steel is capable of so much more than country and jazz/swing. However I have been present at steel guitar shows where the hall has been emptied by players who have chosen to play completely different repertoires to the mainstream. Right or wrong? It's all down to personal choice, but you cannot blame Buddy.
People know what they like. Brian (B J) Cole once decried to Gerry Hogan and I the fact that many British steel players were playing with 'An American accent'. I told Brian that I pleaded guilty to that, as it was what turned me on to the instrument in the first place back in the 1960's. I suspect it was the same for Brian too if he is completely honest. B J plays a lot of classical music live gigs these days, and fair play to him. It is very much a niche market, and at least he is taking the instrument down a different road. Something that Buddy did all those years ago in 1963 and before.
One thing I think that we can all agree on. Buddy Emmons was a genius, and not just for his playing. We are much poorer for his absence.
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
|
|
|
Gary Spaeth
From:
Wisconsin, USA
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 5:04 am
|
|
| hmm... what would steel guitar be like today if Buddy had never lived, or would they all be stored in our great grandfather's closets with their accordians? |
|
|
|
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 5:11 am
|
|
I think perhaps the real question being posed is "Have WE ruined steel guitar?" Buddy was Buddy. What the rest of us have (or haven't) done is no more his fault than it's Jesus' fault what evil acts some people have committed in his name.
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 5:16 am
|
|
Tim, I got what you were saying from the very beginning. If you had just stated this from the start, without the hyperbole, I think you'd be getting more relevant responses:
| Quote: |
What I am saying is that the musical and critical culture surrounding Emmons created problematic elements for steel guitar as a whole.
Case point, I said
'Emmons' genius means that the genre of PSG has stagnate in trying to constantly emulate him' |
But I'm still gonna disagree with you, even on this point. Sure, there are some players and others for whom Buddy has been and even still is essentially the beginning and end of pedal steel development. Same with Scruggs for banjo, Newton for physics, and I really do think one can compare fields provided one doesn't take the analogy too far.
But others have absolutely moved on - pedal steel, banjo, physics - after a paradigm shift, the field works inside that paradigm, but gradually other paradigms develop and frequently there is another paradigm shift. There are other paradigms in each of these, and for some, the paradigm has already shifted. But it often takes time for this to seep out to the mainstream.
But I also think you should really think about where pedal steel might be if there had never been a Buddy Emmons. There were already other great players, and the field would have continued developing. But unlike science, where it's very clear somrebody would have eventually figured out what is now known as Newtonian mechanics, it's not clear that some of Buddy's great innovations would have been realized. And I think that would have hurt the field much more than the fact that some players were content to live within the boundaries of the paradigm he instigated.
In summary, you seem to be arguing that Emmons genius hurt the field more than it helped it. I just don't think that holds water.
On the cult of personality thing - I just don't get that one. Buddy was down to earth, non-secretive, intelligent, funny, and emphatically not caught up in himself. Even if you never met him, the evidence of these attributes is all over this forum in his writings. To me, he was just "one of the guys", but who obviously had a lot more to offer than your "regular guy who played pedal steel." And by the way, if you read his posts and look at his writings on the website Ernie Renn maintains, you'll see that he was always thinking about and pushing the boundaries of the instrument. What I always saw was a man with an open mind, not someone caught up in "past glory". |
|
|
|
Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 5:40 am
|
|
| Tim Sheinman wrote: |
| There is a big difference between being great at baseball and being great at art. . |
You obviously never got to see Sandy Koufax pitch.
In regards to “bacon does literally ruin the pigâ€
you got me there Tim! 
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
|
|
|
J R Rose
From:
Keota, Oklahoma, USA
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 5:40 am
|
|
SAY WHAT, It's all above me. Buddy Emmons was the greatest
but their are many, many others that are just as he was. He was just in the right place and the right time to add to the world his greatness. J.R. Rose
_________________
NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose |
|
|
|
Joe Krumel
From:
Hermitage, Tn.
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 5:45 am
|
|
| Where should steel be right now ? Lets say Buddy never existed. Could someone post some playing that wouldn't attract any hero worshippers but still meets the standards of acceptable progressive pedal steel that won't be imitated too much to slow things down. Does this make sense? |
|
|
|
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 6:12 am
|
|
| Jim Cohen wrote: |
| I think perhaps the real question being posed is "Have WE ruined steel guitar?" Buddy was Buddy. What the rest of us have (or haven't) done is no more his fault than it's Jesus' fault what evil acts some people have committed in his name. |
Right on, Jim.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
|
|
|
Rick Barnhart
From:
Arizona, USA
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 6:27 am
|
|
| Jerry Roller wrote: |
Sorry, but I had to go back to the original post date to see if it was April 1st. 😄
Jerry |
Excellent point, Jerry but usually posts on the 1st of April are at least funny. This one reminds me of the format of shock talk radio. Lead off by stirring the pot, toss in a few irritating remarks and insults...then wait for callers to chime in. Then the host gets to sit back and watch the flames. I can only imagine the big smile on Buddy’s face.
_________________
Clinesmith consoles D-8/6 5 pedal, D-8 3 pedal & A25 Frypan, Pettingill Teardrop, & P8 Deluxe. |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 6:37 am
|
|
| Joe Krumel wrote: |
| Where should steel be right now ? Lets say Buddy never existed. Could someone post some playing that wouldn't attract any hero worshippers but still meets the standards of acceptable progressive pedal steel that won't be imitated too much to slow things down. Does this make sense? |
Robert Randolph? |
|
|
|
Chris Walke
From:
St Charles, IL
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 7:02 am
|
|
| Rick Barnhart wrote: |
| Jerry Roller wrote: |
Sorry, but I had to go back to the original post date to see if it was April 1st. 😄
Jerry |
Excellent point, Jerry but usually posts on the 1st of April are at least funny. This one reminds me of the format of shock talk radio. Lead off by stirring the pot, toss in a few irritating remarks and insults...then wait for callers to chime in. Then the host gets to sit back and watch the flames. I can only imagine the big smile on Buddy’s face. |
I don't think that' the OP's intent. It's simply just a discussion...and this is a Forum for discussion, yes? |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 7:10 am
|
|
| Jim Cohen wrote: |
| I think perhaps the real question being posed is "Have WE ruined steel guitar?" Buddy was Buddy. What the rest of us have (or haven't) done is no more his fault than it's Jesus' fault what evil acts some people have committed in his name. |
I'm inclined to agree, Buddy was just being Buddy. But I don't think he was trying to build up a cult around him. (Some rock and pop stars do attempt to do that, though.)
I also sometimes find it sad that so many emulated, or at least tried to emulate him, and only him. That's the "cult" aspect of the subject. There are thousands of Emmons "wannabees", but almost none for many other truly great players, like Rugg and Chalker. In addition, there are some newer players who emulate a group I like to call "commercial stylists". These are players who have a good degree of popularity, both inside and outside of country music, but simply don't have the chops of guys like Emmons, Rugg, or Chalker. Style can do that; it can impress many audiences more than sheer technical ability, or virtuoso musicianship. |
|
|
|
Dennis Brion
From:
Atwater, Ohio USA
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 7:14 am
|
|
Ok fellas here is my 2 cents! Absolute no!
Did Buddy raise the pedal steel to new heights, Yes! Is he solely responsible to maintain its popularity, No!
The slow erosion of the pedal steel is most likely due to the huge push today of today's new wave of country rock, country pop, not really country music or not at all country music pop music played on country music stations!
I watched a CMT show called crossroads with Jason Aldean and John Mayer...was a great show.....John told Jason that they are a "rock band in cowboy hats" very true but they are good! Not what I want to hear all day everyday but good.
This is the music pushed by the industry today because it enthrall's all of the younger generation. They have yet to experience the beauty of the pedal steel because it is not readily available unless you are looking for it. Of course Strait and the few remaining old country stars have pedal steel on the majority of their songs but they are still swamped by the "new wave" of country music.
In another post on the forum a guy asked where the co u try music is this weekend in Nashville? Really the main drag had nothing but pop,rock, acdc, get the picture!
Buddy didn't ruin anything, he made guys want to learn to play this very cool and complicated instrument! I have waited to 65 to have the time to try to learn this beast and now it's not on the radio hardly at all.
I like Paisly,Urban and they have a place but not at the exclusion of pedal steel country.
That is why classic country stations are so popular now!
Did Buddy ruin pedal steel? Nope country music radio did!
_________________
1969 Custom built d10, Fender 25R practice amp,Dunlop pedal, Peavy Special 130 w/15" Blackwidow, Gretsch resonator, 41 Gibson 7 string lap steel, Epiphone flat top, 67 Epiphone Olympic |
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 7:19 am
|
|
Buddy was SO dedicated to the instrument that he would even practice in the dark so in case he went blind, he could still play.
He would go to bed with a practice board on his lap and play until he couldn't stay awake any longer.
Now that's dedication!! 
Erv |
|
|
|
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
|
|
|
Dustin Kleingartner
From:
Saint Paul MN, USA
|
Posted 23 Apr 2019 7:37 am
|
|
Everyone wants new and interesting topics to discuss on this forum... well here it is. I'm not completely sure what to make of this, but I do know that it is more interesting than talking about volume pedal pots and Katana settings
_________________
Proud parent of a good dog. |
|
|
|
