| Author |
Topic: How did we end up with C6 instead of B6 or A6? |
Aaron Johnson
From:
Lemoore, CA
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 4:17 am |
|
Andy raised this question in a different thread that others may not be reading and I'm curious too. For pedal steel, how did we end up with C6 vs. B6 or A6? Is there an advantage to C6 over the other two?
Thanks,
Aaron |
|
|
|
Al Evans
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 5:04 am Re: How did we end up with C6 instead of B6 or A6?
|
|
| Aaron Johnson wrote: |
...C6 vs. B6 or A6? Is there an advantage to C6 over the other two?
|
It seems to me that a low A string would be getting into difficult territory for string makers. A good friend has/had a custom-made 7-string baritone guitar, with a longish scale (26 or 28 inches, I can't remember). and ended up using custom double-wound strings and still not being satisfied. The shorter scale of a pedal steel would make string manufacture even harder.
--Al Evans
_________________
2018 MSA Legend, 2018 ZumSteel Encore, 2015 Mullen G2, G&L S-500, G&L ASAT, G&L LB-100, Godin A4 Fretless, Kinscherff High Noon |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 5:27 am
|
|
| In my way of thinking, a "C" base tuning just puts the most commonly used keys in a good position on the neck. A "B" based tuning puts your "C" at fret #1, which can pose some problems, and the "A" based tuning puts the most commonly-used country music key ("G") a little too far up the neck. |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 5:49 am
|
|
Actually, in E9th, if you lower your E's, you are in B6, and if you hold the AB pedals down, you are in A6th.
So those bases are covered under the D10-Universal concept.
Some players play Bb6th, too. |
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 7:38 am
|
|
I think it's because a lot of pedal steel players started out on non-pedal and they were already used to the C6th tuning. 
Erv |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 8:55 am
|
|
Other things I've read on this topic over the years includes the early years alot of players had to play in Eb and Bb, due to those being common to Horn based instruments.
Eb would put you at fret-3 in C6th, and Bb would put you on fret 10, both very comfortable places to play out of on E9th as we all know.
Not sure how it ties in but there are alot of songs with open-strings and hammer-on's amongst C6th Instrumentals. |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 10:34 am
|
|
Donny, why is C at the 1st fret a problem? I play B6 and it avoids the nut. Not many tunes are in B.
Pete, I imagine the tuning came first, not the instrumentals.
I said this elsewhere, but when pedals came along they amalgamated the E and A tunings of the multi-neck guitar and left C on its own.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 10:49 am
|
|
Jerry Byrd discovered C6th early in his career and recorded countless hits on it. When pedals came in, C6th was already very popular among the non-pedal players who had been covering radio songs.
Buddy Emmons designed the copedent for Sho~Bud guitars. He used Byrd's most famous bar slants for pedals 5 and 6, and Byrd's retuning of C6/A7 for pedal 8. The Emmons C6th copedent was largely standardized by the time Winnie Winston's book came out (1975). Most of the modern players were using it.
TLDR: We use C6th because Jerry Byrd.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video
Last edited by b0b on 9 Apr 2019 10:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 10:54 am
|
|
| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Pete, I imagine the tuning came first, not the instrumentals. |
My point is, in order to copy the Instrumentals of the day, all the giggig players would also have to have a C6th tuning. 'Possibly part of the reason it became an industry standard.
I personally love having C6th on fret-1, or fret-2 (I flirt with Bb6/Eb9 quite regularly), but, as all Uni Players know, any C6th Tab requiring open notes and/or hammer-on's is not readily accessible. |
|
|
|
Rich Sullivan
From:
Nelson, NH 03457
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 11:01 am
|
|
| Erv has it right. I think it was a natural historical development. Jerry Byrd was the first to play C6th tuning. (At least he always claimed that, and nobody has proven otherwise.) The reason he played C6th and not B6th was that all of his tunings had an E on the first string, and he would retune any of the other strings as needed. He was a major influence on the next generation of steelers, which included Buddy Emmons. It had become such a popular tuning due to players wanting to emulate Byrd, and with Buddy playing that tuning while pedal steel was developing, that is how C6th transitioned from non-pedal to the pedal steel. C6th and A6th were probably the two most popular 6th tunings. An A6th tuning wasn't needed, because it was basically embedded in the E9th with pedals down. (Not that it matters to this discussion, but B6th is also now present within the E9th with the knee lever engaged, but the knee levers weren't developed yet at the start of the pedal steel.) And finally, it made sense to have a 6th tuning in general on a double neck to give a very distinct alternative to the E9th. C6th won out. |
|
|
|
Rich Sullivan
From:
Nelson, NH 03457
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 11:03 am
|
|
| I was writing my post while b0b was posting. He is absolutely correct. |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 11:33 am
|
|
I see what you mean, Pete. I've enough on my plate without trying to learn hammer-ons! 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
|
|
|
Dana Blodgett
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 12:10 pm
|
|
A standard tuned soprano or concert ukulele works very well over C6 or C13 which a lot of Hawaiians use.
G-C-E-A (re-entrant)
_________________
Dana Blodgett
From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme |
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 12:42 pm
|
|
In my youth I bought this book and that's when I was introduced to the C6th tuning.
So in my mind's eye, I give Jerry Byrd credit for coming up with the C6th tuning.
Erv
 |
|
|
|
Aaron Johnson
From:
Lemoore, CA
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 1:53 pm
|
|
Thank you everyone for the replies and the historical information. This forum is truly amazing.
If Mr. Byrd hadn't set the standard as C6 and if you could start new today knowing what all of you know and with modern steel changes available, would you consider A6 or B6 over C6? Is there any other tuning for that matter you would prefer to complement E9? |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 2:47 pm
|
|
There are plenty of candidates. It depends on what voicing you consider most appealing. I've drawn parallels with brass instruments before, but before the French horn had valves, it was tuned by fitting different lengths of tubing ("crooks") to give pitches from C (i.e. sounding as written) down through Bb, A, G, F, E, Eb, D, C, B and Bb. When valves took over the F crook emerged as the most popular for tone and playability, and French horns are built in F to this day.
Therefore the C6 tuning has remained popular because it feels right. B6 is used a lot and Bb6 a little. b0b has made a success of D6. But no-one seems to operate outside that range on a pedal guitar.
Now I wait to see if I'm wrong
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Rich Sullivan
From:
Nelson, NH 03457
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 4:29 pm
|
|
Two of the all-time masters of non-pedal steel were Noel Boggs and Herb Remington, and although they both excelled at many different tunings, a large body of their work was in A6th tuning. As far as I know, Boggs never transitioned to pedals, but Remington did so quite successfully, and continued to play A6th on pedal steel throughout his career. b0b has his copedant listed here.
https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/famous-players/#A6hr |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 6:29 pm
|
|
| Aaron Johnson wrote: |
| If Mr. Byrd hadn't set the standard as C6 and if you could start new today knowing what all of you know and with modern steel changes available, would you consider A6 or B6 over C6? Is there any other tuning for that matter you would prefer to complement E9? |
I use D6th because I prefer the higher range. I don't use it to complement E9th though. I use it instead of E9th. 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 9 Apr 2019 7:03 pm
|
|
| Ian Rae wrote: |
Donny, why is C at the 1st fret a problem? I play B6 and it avoids the nut. Not many tunes are in B.
. |
Back in Byrd's day, when steels had fewer strings, playing at the first fret wasn't as much of a problem. But with the advent of 10 and 12 string guitars, string rattle and buzz just seemed more problematic. Bar control can be harder with the bigger and heavier bar required, so I think most beginners would see lots of first-fret playing as being unnecessarily challenging. |
|
|
|
Paul McEvoy
From:
Baltimore, USA
|
Posted 10 Apr 2019 3:43 am
|
|
| Would having A6 on a long scale guitar be the best of both worlds? Seems like a baritone situation where the c6 are would still be short enough for slants but would offer you additional range and maybe some additional stretch for string pulls (on non-pedal)? |
|
|
|
Aaron Johnson
From:
Lemoore, CA
|
Posted 10 Apr 2019 4:15 am
|
|
| Paul McEvoy wrote: |
| Would having A6 on a long scale guitar be the best of both worlds? Seems like a baritone situation where the c6 are would still be short enough for slants but would offer you additional range and maybe some additional stretch for string pulls (on non-pedal)? |
Paul, I was wondering the same thing. Possibly Bobby's copedent but in A6 vs. D6 for a baritone. It wouldn't take much to tune in up higher on a modern steel. A .072 on the low string may be a stretch (has anyone tried this?) but if you were to tune it up to B, that's on a 0.068 the same as a C. |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 10 Apr 2019 5:23 am
|
|
Donny, what you say about a noisy first fret had not occurred to me. I suppose I'm blessed with instruments that behave themselves, although I admit you have to be firm down there.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Ethan Shaw
From:
Texas, USA
|
Posted 10 Apr 2019 9:51 am
|
|
| I play A6 pedal steel, and the advantages are being able to play with vibrato in the low c major position, and having the C9 chord available on fret 1 (with the pedal that flats the 5th). I've played C6 pedal steel, though, and it's fine, too. If you have the c-c# change, you can play in A6. Whatever floats your boat, but there's nothing wrong with A6! |
|
|
|
Ethan Shaw
From:
Texas, USA
|
Posted 10 Apr 2019 9:53 am
|
|
| Someday I'll make a book to teach A6 pedal steel for the rebels... |
|
|
|
