| Author |
Topic: So I am Lead to Believe... |
Tom Suchon
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2019 8:39 pm |
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| copedents are whatever works for you. I recently a bought my first steel. A stage one. LOVE IT. I did the 7 and1 string change to G#,not G.. LOVE IT. From what I understand, everyone agrees all the most needed chords in various forms are basically generated from ABC pedals, and LKL doing E's. that leaves the right knee to be whatever suits you? Basically? with my RKL I can swoop up and cover a string 7 I hit by mistake in a a no pedals situation. My RKR drops string 2 down a half, so I have and extra 7th tone to go with string 9. [no pedals]. neither of the RK options give me another chord form. Now, I see a discovery [another 3 x 4] and its RKL raises 1 and 2 and lowers 6. Dang ! is this an entirely new chord position or is this more for individual note playing? also the discovery RKR lowers 2 AND 9. I know I can go from a maj7 to min7 with RKR. I guess my question is..is anything gained chord wise by the difference between the two? I am not into music theory, so I can't talked flatted thirds, but I think my Stage one is the absolute bomb and I can't see where it falls short. Hope this makes sense. until october I hadn't even stood next to one of the wonderful instruments. thanks for listening |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Feb 2019 9:17 pm
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Right, whatever works for you - but only up to a point. If you stray too far from the accepted standards, it locks you into only being comfortable on your guitar. There are sometimes occasions where most of us would like to try someone else's guitar, and where they might like to play ours. When you have something radically different, that is ruled out. The changes you have are fine. You will always see things that look interesting and different, new changes you might think of adding. My suggestion is to live with what you have for a year, and to delve into not only different chords, but also harmonic possibilities that each change gives. Changing copedents frequently is not something I think beginners should do.
Keep in mind that more pedals and chords doesn't make you a better player. Some of the best steel that's ever been played (and continues to be played) was done with fairly simple setups. |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2019 9:23 pm
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What Donny Hinson said...
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2019 11:04 pm
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Welcome to the mad science of the steel guitar world. Definitely stick to your guns for a while and then decide if it’s all you’ll ever want in a copedent.
There is magic in that half-step lower on string 2, you’ll see. I have the standard G raises on 1 & 7 on my Stage One. Couldn’t live without them. The half-step lower on string 5 is about the only thing I would want added if it were possible, though I wouldn’t want it with that Discovery change.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 12 Feb 2019 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 12 Feb 2019 1:51 am
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certainly have fun and make some changes, but it's probably best to not re-invent the instrument !
Most players will make changes based on experiences , they know exactly why they are making a change. And as Donny so correctly states, don't stray too far from the basics.
While nobody has to be a theory minded individual, never lose sight that the Pedal Steel is built and designed with simple theory in mind, right in front of you. The fact that you are referring to a 7th tone suggests that you are indeed applying some minimal theory . Should you stray too far with your tuning you will indeed alter the simple built in theory that came with the instrument !
Piano's are tuned in octaves from the low end to the high end, nobody changes the notes. They are all the same for ALL players.Concert Pianists to grade 1 Primers, they all play the same Piano tuning.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Feb 2019 3:08 am
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| Quote: |
| ... most needed chords in various forms are basically generated from ABC pedals, and LKL doing E's. that leaves the right knee to be whatever suits you? Basically? |
First, you need to be clear in your notation. When you say LKL do you mean "Left Knee Levers"? Because both the E=>F raise and the E=>Eb lower are essential E9 changes, but the notation LKL means "Left Knee Left", i.e., left knee lever moving left, and LKR means "Left Knee Right", left knee lever moving right. This is what is standard on what is known as the classic "Emmons" setup of ABC pedals (left-to-right), and then E=>F on LKL and E=>Eb on LKR.
Second - under the assumption that this is what you mean - as Donny said, I wouldn't exactly say that this "leaves the right knee to be whatever suits you." There are several fairly standard approaches to the other levers, and as you note, some are like what you have on your guitar, and others more like what you're describing on the Discovery. I personally go for something more like what you describe on the Discovery (although my lever arrangement is different), but it took me quite some time to be able to come to that conclusion.
But the long and short is that these are both reasonable approaches, and I don't think it makes much difference when starting out. The reason I say this is that I think most people wanting to learn E9 pedal steel have at least a few years of work getting straight the most critical aspects of playing pedal steel guitar, which I think are:
1. Learning to properly control the bar and play in tune, moving up and down the neck;
2. Learning to properly pick and block (mute) the strings, including avoiding strings that you don't want to play;
3. Learning to properly use your feet to smoothly operate the A, B, and C pedals to smoothly move in and out of different chord and chord-melody positions while playing;
4. Learning to smoothly use the E=>F lever and E=>Eb lever with the pedals to get many more chord and chord-melody options;
5. Learning to use the 1st and 2nd (often called melodic, 'chromatic', or 're-entrant') and 7th strings with and without some very basic changes on them.
I think you'll have your work cut out to get to the point where you will know which approach you prefer to those other levers, or if you want to even move the E=>F and E=>Eb levers around some. I think your time will be far better spent working on learning to play your guitar than messing around with your setup.
And to this:
| Quote: |
| with my RKL I can swoop up and cover a string 7 I hit by mistake in a a no pedals situation. |
I would not suggest looking at it this way. That change is not there to cover up mistakes. You need to learn to handle so-called "pick grips" so that you hit that string when you want to and avoid it when you don't want to hit it. And that goes for all the strings. You will be far better to spend your time practicing picking than fiddling around trying to cover up mistakes. Let the mistakes happen and learn to avoid them by proper picking technique. |
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Tom Suchon
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2019 5:58 am
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| the only changes I have available to me are 1 and 7 up a whole step,which I did, and string 2 a whole step. I left string 2 alone cuz it gives me 2 uses [maj7 and min7] and I think thats pretty useful. I dont want to [and can't] re-invent the wheel on a stage one. I was just wondering with3 strings being changed on the discovery, verses 1 string on the stage one with RKL, does that give you a whole bunch more chord options for common grips, or just more notes for melody lines.? the RKL on the discovery doesnt even effect string 7 like my stage one , so I cant imagine the sound of that lever and what it does. theres no doubt what I have now will keep me busy for years... but you guys keep selling guitars on here.....and I have GAS just as bad as you guys do...... |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Feb 2019 7:35 am
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I'm confused by these seemingly contradictory statements:
From first post:
| Quote: |
| with my RKL I can swoop up and cover a string 7 I hit by mistake in a a no pedals situation. ... I did the 7 and1 string change to G#,not G.. ... My RKR drops string 2 down a half, so I have and extra 7th tone to go with string 9. [no pedals] |
From second post:
| Quote: |
| the only changes I have available to me are 1 and 7 up a whole step,which I did, and string 2 a whole step. |
If I understand you correctly, you have standard ABC pedals, strings 4/8 E=>F lever on LKL, strings 4/8 E=>Eb lever on LKR, strings 1/7 F#=>G# on RKL, and string 2 D#=>D.
Or do you have some type of whole-tone change on string 2, as indicated in the second post? If it were me, the more useful change there would be to lower string 2 D#=>C#, rather than raise it to F. But I don't think it matters either way - you have plenty enough on this guitar to keep you busy for a while.
An important point - when discussing these changes, it is essential to very, very clearly communicate exactly what you're talking about. Every little detail matters. This instrument requires immense attention to detail.
But to try to get to what you asked here:
| Quote: |
| Now, I see a discovery [another 3 x 4] and its RKL raises 1 and 2 and lowers 6. |
Probably the most standard change of this type would be to raise string 1 F#=>G#, string 2 D#=>E, and string 6 G#=>F#, and yes, these are extremely useful changes when on the opposite knee from the E=>Eb lever, in my opinion. There are a large number of very useful chord and chord-melody moves possible using string 6 G#=>F# together with the E=>Eb lever and the A and B pedals. And there is a lot to do with those string 1&2 raises. At this point, I wouldn't be without them, especially string 6 G#=>F#. I don't consider any change on string 7 essential. But lots of great players take the exact opposite approach from me - there is no 'correct' approach to this.
As far as GAS goes, yeah, lots of us have it. And in time, you may want another guitar. But I still think you have plenty, plenty to work on for a while and I would still advise you wait to fiddle around with new guitars until you have more basics down, which will give you a much better idea what you might want to move towards. Just my opinion from what you're telling us. |
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Tom Suchon
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2019 8:10 am
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| Dave, thanks for your response. I guess it does sound confusing the only changes I can do to a stage one is string 1 and 7 up from 1/2 tone to full tone and string 2 down from 1/2 to whole tone. I did not move string 2 down to whole tone as I am finding useful where it is. it can only lower as it is my RKR. and yes, my E's are on the left as in standard Emmons. sorry for the confusion. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Feb 2019 9:02 am
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| Quote: |
| I guess it does sound confusing the only changes I can do to a stage one is string 1 and 7 up from 1/2 tone to full tone and string 2 down from 1/2 to whole tone. |
No, that makes sense to me, probably a limitation of the changer. I think those are reasonable changes. Although I like string 2 going both 1/2 tone and whole tone down, if I had too choose only one, I'd choose 1/2 tone D#=>D, as you have done. And I agree on string 1 and 7 up a full tone as opposed to a half tone.
You have a fully capable guitar right now. You'll probably find things you want to change/add in time. But you have everything you need to get started properly, IMO. |
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Tom Suchon
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2019 9:52 am
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| Thank you Dave. Yes, considering the limitations of the guitar itself, I believe it is set up for optimum playability. Its when I see that change on RKL like the discovery has, it just makes me curious as to what I am missing. But then I sit down and play,and it feels like I aint missing a thing! Years of entertainment and great music is sitting right in front of me.... |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 12 Feb 2019 10:50 am Re: So I am Lead to Believe...
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| Tom Suchon wrote: |
| I am not into music theory, so I can't talked flatted thirds, but I think my Stage one is the absolute bomb and I can't see where it falls short. |
Great advice already from so many in this thread!
I would add that at least a basic knowledge of music theory will take you a very long way in the land of pedal steel, especially if you want to start understanding what altering your pedals and knees give or take from you chord-wise...not to mention just why those pedals and knees magically change chords the way they do. You don't need to get to the absurdly advanced level as many modern guitarists who might say, 'I'm soloing over an Abm6 to F6/9 progression so I obviously play in A# dorian mode' 
...BUT...
You'd be well served to understand intervals and at the very least how those intervals combine to build major, minor, diminished & augmented triads. Once there you could move up to understanding your 7th chords and beyond.
I'm sure there are tons of free internet sites that teach basic music theory. Since you've said you've just begun learning to play, why not learn some theory at the same time? It will make you a more complete player and it's tons of fun 
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2019 11:10 am
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| Tom Suchon wrote: |
| I was just wondering with3 strings being changed on the discovery, verses 1 string on the stage one with RKL, does that give you a whole bunch more chord options for common grips, or just more notes for melody lines.? the RKL on the discovery doesnt even effect string 7 like my stage one , so I cant imagine the sound of that lever and what it does. theres no doubt what I have now will keep me busy for years... but you guys keep selling guitars on here.....and I have GAS just as bad as you guys do...... |
The Mullen Discovery offers more configuration options than the Stage One, but the base price is also about double. RKL on the Stage One is set to raise 1 & 7, as you have clarified in a later comment.
If RKL on the Discovery raises 1&2 (by how much?) and lowers 6 (by how much?), it just means someone customized it that way. A grip of strings 6-2-1 is not considered a basic chord grip, though there is certainly no law against it. In fact, there is a Dmaj inversion with B pedal and D lower lever. Also, there are a number of very cool 4-note chords that include playing those three strings along with 5, 4, or 3, even with standard Stage One changes.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 12 Feb 2019 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tom Suchon
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2019 11:21 am Re: So I am Lead to Believe...
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You don't need to get to the absurdly advanced level as many modern guitarists who might say, 'I'm soloing over an Abm6 to F6/9 progression so I obviously play in A# dorian mode'
Thats funny right there...I don't care who you are. LOL
Good advice from you as well, Dennis. I have played guitar and bass off and on for almost 50 years. Decided I needed a pedal steel . I am finally getting my right hand to co operate,[that blocking stuff is hard!] and have the left side of the body mechanics working pretty well.[bar and pedals] I think I am moving along pretty good. Thanks to you tube and you guys on this site, guys like me can advance as fast as we can absorb. gettin it right is what takes the time. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 12 Feb 2019 12:20 pm Re: So I am Lead to Believe...
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| Tom Suchon wrote: |
You don't need to get to the absurdly advanced level as many modern guitarists who might say, 'I'm soloing over an Abm6 to F6/9 progression so I obviously play in A# dorian mode'
Thats funny right there...I don't care who you are. LOL |
Ya, I read things like that all the time on other guitar forums and I just shake my head 
Music theory isn't supposed to be a bunch of rules that tell you what you can't do, it should be a tool to help you understand how to do more.
| Tom Suchon wrote: |
I have played guitar and bass off and on for almost 50 years. Decided I needed a pedal steel |
Gotcha. I think because of the tuning flexibility and pedal/knee options in the world of pedal steel, that at least a basic understanding of theory is even more valuable here...especially if you plan to try different settings for your pedals/knees. It's good to know why you're changing a pull and what you're getting - and giving up
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
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Tom Suchon
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2019 12:57 pm
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| So I guess I need to try and stay off of the for sale page and settle down with my Stage One. I'm good with that. But so many guitars.....so little time... |
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Bas Kapitein
From:
Holland
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Posted 12 Feb 2019 2:02 pm
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYmtQtt1OpA&spfreload=10
Who you will see here is André Sommer a Dutch steel player with 45+ years of stage experience and who played quite a few steels (including double necks) who likes his Stage one as his working horse. Somewhere on the net is more from him and band. |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 13 Feb 2019 2:04 pm Re: So I am Lead to Believe...
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| Tom Suchon wrote: |
| From what I understand, everyone agrees all the most needed chords in various forms are basically generated from ABC pedals, and LKL doing E's. that leaves the right knee to be whatever suits you? |
Tom, just another opinion here....everybody has one, right? I think the factory setup on the Stage One is well thought out. These are changes that have been around for a long time and proven their worth. With the limited changes available on the Stage One, it makes sense to look at the notes these levers give you. Raising strings 1 and 7 to G gives you a note that you don't have on another string. Same goes for the 2nd string lower to D. (True, you have it on the 9th string but that's a low octave)
There are other uses for these changes, but with the factory setup, you can think of the right knee as your 7th chords. In an open position, the 2nd string lower makes a seventh chord. With A&B pedals down, the G on strings 1&7 makes a seventh chord.
I can see where raising string 1 to G# has some uses, in fact it's quite popular. Twinning with string 3 and releasing it gives a nice effect (Listen to the intro of Garth Brook's "Last Summer") but I wouldn't want to give up the half step raise to G. For licks where I need that momentary G#, I use a bar slant together with the raise to G. Raising string 7 to G# is just redundant because you already have a G# on the next string. If you really like the G# on the first string, I wonder if it's possible to leave that as you have it, and put the 7th string back to G? Either way, your Stage One has everything you need for 90% of what you'll ever need. Certainly enough to keep you busy for a few years. |
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Tom Suchon
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2019 3:34 pm
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Hello Tommy, thanks for weighing in.
yes, I can move either string 1 or 7 back to the half step. I didn't move string 2 as it gives me a maj7 open and the extra 7th if I want it with RKR. I may have been a little early making the changes.before I got familiar with the whole thing. that 7th string going to G...wasn't helping me any . After I did the change [both 1 and 7 at the same time] I really liked the fact I could and some extra twang to a no pedals chord. I could change it back [now that I am much more familiar with the guitar] and try it for a while. the first string I dont use too much yet. I am still practicing basic grips and slides and such .I didn't realize AB plusRKL would give you a 7th. It would be worth putting string 7 back just to hear that. |
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Bob Russell
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2019 7:23 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Keep in mind that more pedals and chords doesn't make you a better player. Some of the best steel that's ever been played (and continues to be played) was done with fairly simple setups. |
That, right there.
_________________
Lots of stringy things, many of them slidey. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 14 Feb 2019 6:36 am
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Another thing to consider is if you raise string 1 to G#, you can probably get used to pushing the lever only 1/2 way to get the G note. On my Carter D10, I have both the G# on 1 change (along with raising 2 and lowering 6) and the 1 & 7 raising to G on seperate levers. When I bought my Mullen SD12 in 2017, I only ordered it with 3p/4k. I "half lever" the first string to get the G note. You can also use your fingers behind the bar and pull the first up to G.
Either change is useful. I do use the whole step change on string more than the half step change.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Tom Suchon
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2019 10:09 am
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Rich, I spent a couple hours last night trying to perfect the half step with AB to get that 7th.  |
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Sean Borton
From:
Winnipeg Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 16 Feb 2019 8:48 am Re: So I am Lead to Believe...
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| Tommy Mc wrote: |
There are other uses for these changes, but with the factory setup, you can think of the right knee as your 7th chords. In an open position, the 2nd string lower makes a seventh chord. With A&B pedals down, the G on strings 1&7 makes a seventh chord. |
What a great conceptual approach to the right knees... with that particular setup. Thanks for sharing...
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Keep in mind that more pedals and chords doesn't make you a better player. Some of the best steel that's ever been played (and continues to be played) was done with fairly simple setups. |
Lloyd Green's copendent is absolute proof of this... Lloyd chose mastery of the bar over adding more pedals/levers. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Feb 2019 7:18 am
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| Tom Suchon wrote: |
| Thank you Dave. Yes, considering the limitations of the guitar itself, I believe it is set up for optimum playability. Its when I see that change on RKL like the discovery has, it just makes me curious as to what I am missing. But then I sit down and play,and it feels like I aint missing a thing! Years of entertainment and great music is sitting right in front of me.... |
I wish every beginning player had that kind of attitude!  So many focus on a few things their particular instrument can't do, rather than marvel at the all the things that can be done on it. |
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