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Topic: Improvisation |
Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 12 Dec 2018 8:41 am |
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After reading and posting in a thread in "Steel Players,,,What to Play",,,and realizing that thread was taking a side road, I thought I would see if this would generate a discussion.
I think a question of improvisation vs exact melody, when it comes time to solo has been "discussed" on here before, with staunch supporters on both sides. There is obviously a time when one would be more appropriate than the other.
Here is an observation that I made a looooong time ago. I would contend that, a huge percentage of the time, the listener hears what they choose to hear,,and would defend what they "heard" with passion. i.e. After the seed has been planted, that is, the familiar tune has been established, then an improvisation, based on the chord structure and feel of the song, a person will swear they heard the melody. I have tried this with MANY people over the years and they will invariably say the melody,,or "song" was played. Sometimes they say "well there was a little bit of color added but the melody was there for sure",,,when really it wasn't.
That being said, I am currently looking for something I saw a few months ago called "Improvising around triads",,,or something like that. This may have been something from a guitar teacher that I hear from periodically named Prokopis Skordis,,,but it seems to be something that would be very useful,,,from the standpoint of knowing and using intervals,,,something that is stressed as a MUST by some of the leading PSG,,,or all music instruction.
Comments?? |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 12 Dec 2018 8:57 am
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This is the guy (with the funny name,,LOL) that I was referring to. He has a very impressive musical background,,,Greek Conservatory of Music and Berkley in Boston. His SFS (String Fragment System) for blues and pentatonics
, to me, is MUCH more effective than "memorizing box shapes" on guitar. Most of his methods are easily applicable to PSG,,(wish there was a good way to apply his SFS to PSG!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqWfcSxP0v8&feature=youtu.be |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2018 9:37 am
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Sonny, Paul Franklin posted some enlightening comments in this thread.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=331172&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
“Intervallic†and “Triadic†were new terms for me, though the concepts seemed immediately familiar. I never realized just how little scalar type playing I use when I improvise.
Arpeggiating the melody, or restating it otherwise in chord fragments and double stops, is one way to approach improvisation. I focus on capturing the feel of the song. If bits and pieces of a strong melody find their way in there, all the more better. If the melody is just plain uninteresting, then I see no need to be constricted by it. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 12 Dec 2018 10:07 am
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| Yes Paul has been very strong on intervals AND approach notes. Let's face it, triads ARE intervals,,,1,3,5. If you know where 1 is, then you know where 2 and 7 are,,and if you know intuitively where 3 and 5 are,,,then you know where 4 and 6 are etc. So I can certainly see how triads and approach notes are very effective when improvising. Even playing around the triads of the chord changes. I am going to spend more time analyzing and applying these to melodies I already play. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 12 Dec 2018 10:34 am
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Haha.. Great minds think alike Sonny! I just posted a comment on that other thread you mentioned about how improvisation and 'what to play' are interrelated. Then I see you've brought it up as a new thread.  |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2018 12:15 pm
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Being a newcomer to pedal steel, I find that I don't think about the technicality of things too much (although, I'm trying to understand the intervalic thing). I still tend to let my ear guide me. I am ripping off licks I hear from the old greats, and trying to incorporate them into my thinking, in hopes that it will gel into my own thing - or at least, gel into some level of competence on this instrument. I have found that, any version of Thanks A Lot, that has Buddy Charleton on it, has a huge amount of licks that are not only melodic (which is where I tend to go towards), but, make sense (to me anyway) in a musical way. Every time I listen to it, I'm drawn toward another great lick. The one drawback of this I have experienced (on 6-string it was with Jimmie Vaughn) is, that if you are not careful, you can wind up sounding like someone else, rather than developing your own thing.
I mentioned somewhere before that playing arpeggios, as opposed to scales, was not only easier, but made more sense to me. |
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Stephen Williams
From:
from Wales now in Berkeley,Ca, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2018 1:31 pm
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Sonny, that was a good video. Simple and very effective. I can count on one hand the number of useful music help videos out there.
To me when he is chromatically heading to the target note, i can hear the next note i want to play. which is how I play.....I can hear mostly where i want to go based on the note before. when i play 6 string geetar an easy way to solo is on one string. because it's easier to know where to go....at least for me.
Of course I'm fom the school of melody is king rather than widdly widdly 10,000 notes per sec which is sooooo boring |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2018 2:46 pm
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I'm a big fan of the Buddy Cage method of E9th speed pickin' through the chord changes.
Tons of off the cuff improv examples in New Riders songs.
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 Dec 2018 4:05 pm
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| Stephen Williams wrote: |
Of course I'm from the school of melody is king rather than widdly widdly 10,000 notes per sec which is sooooo boring |
Well sometimes Stephen, that's exactly right. And then again, sometimes it's wrong. It depends both on the song and the player. Some players can't play fast very well, so they do the old "slow and safe" stick to the melody...with everything. That works, to an extent, and on certain songs. But for some songs, playing "just the melody" kills it. It winds up being just too simplistic, too slow, and too boring. Yes, I once listened to a straight guitar player do "Rocky Top" like that. All four verses and two choruses, at about 100 BPM. Nothing but the melody.
I thought that song would never end! it was one of the few times in my life I was praying for eighth notes (or a power failure...lights out, end of song...man, I'm glad that's over!)  |
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David Peirce
From:
Left Coast of Florida
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Posted 12 Dec 2018 7:14 pm
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Depends on the band you're with, and the audience you're playing for, IMHO. There are bands, and audiences, which do not want to hear anything but the straight melody (think - VFW, Am Legion, Eagles, etc.[full disclosure -former Am Legion member]) and that's fine - someone told me once that the hardest thing to play is the note for note tune - no room for error. In many cases, it becomes a question of "who are you playing for? - the audience, the other band members. or yourself??"
Which, of course, leads to the whole question of whether or not one is comfortable subjugating one's ego for the benefit (?) of the audience, or the less than stellar band you've hooked up with this weekend, or the singer who can't keep his/her meter straight, or .........
Which also leads to the question of: "just how important is the money you're making on this gig to you? If it is important (been there) then you do what is expected or required, and save your sophisticated improvisations for the next good band you play with, or your next vanity CD. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 13 Dec 2018 3:07 pm
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| I say again,,,if a song that has the melody already established (i.e. a verse or two has been sung , now comes your solo,,,or maybe even a song that has just been "announced",,or stated) is played "inside" the chord structure of the song, 9,,,no,,,99 out of 100 listeners will swear you played the melody. Actually I've even heard musicians swear they played the melody, when in fact they played harmonies,,,their mind heard the melody. Kinda like an optical illusion,,,except the ears,,,audio illusion,,,LOL |
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Franklin
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Posted 15 Dec 2018 7:03 am
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| ..."There is no one size fits all to any musical apprach"..Musicians should open their minds to every direction for more options on every topic...Please the boss-your audience. |
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Franklin
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Posted 15 Dec 2018 7:24 am
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In my course we started a new topic titled "Intervallic improvisations vs Scales"...Its the thought process I, Buddy, Parker, Jerry Reed, etc use to create riffs and its the process that completely solves the improvisation puzzle for any chord type...All you have to do is learn the structure of songs, apply this simple process to everything you know about harmony., and keep learning more harmony choices. This method intensifies our focus down to the key issues of importance...Great news is this process is instantly applicable to us as musicians...No more running scales and scale patterns which sound non musical in jams.....
In the very first introduction into this thought process.....I took three examples, one from Chick Corea, Buddy Emmons, and myself.. ....Its the shortest path that I know of playing freely away from the restrictions of scales and scale patterns. |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2018 2:46 pm
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| Paul, when you talk about intervalic playing, are you eluding to a more melodic way of phrasing, as opposed to just running through licks and scales? I think I understand this from my 6-string days. When I started to study Wes Montgomery's style in earnest (especially when I started using my thumb rather than flat pick), I started paying much more attention to progressions, and things just opened up exponentially as far as melodic content and musicality went - I think this is why in his body of work, you never really heard a misplaced note. |
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Franklin
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Posted 15 Dec 2018 7:33 pm
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Bobby,
Intervallic is when you know the intervals which are the notes of any chord. Interval knowledge also provides the upper extensions to any major or minor chord...As you know they can be altered from the pure form all of which is subjective to the players musical taste.......The great thing as Joe Pass says: "there are only two chord types, major and minor" that's it!. The more you can simplify the overview, the faster you progress towards playing more...Its as simple as that...Self taught students overcomplicate the learning processes due to sometimes spinning in circles trying to advance....If you never climb a mountain its hard to pick the safest and most direct path for achieving the goal of great musicianship.
In a nut shell, The steel is tuned to stacks of triadic major and minor intervals. We then add pedals changing those intervals from #'s to b's...From there, the steel is providing altered intervals... All of the intervals within the open tuning and our copedants gives us the entire range of interval choices we will ever need without running a single scale.
.Its a total myth that running scales will bring us new note choices....Everybody runs the same scales and same scale patterns..... Intervallic is a much simpler way to create individual riffs that will sound unique from your mates... There are more ideas that work for simplifying the improvisational process. I learned to play by musicians showing me how to simplify the process....
I believe teaching how harmony works in music and how great improvs are put together is a much more rewarding study for the time spent in the seat.
Happy Holidays!
Paul |
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Donald Mohr
From:
California, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2018 8:51 pm
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So the first time I've felt able to reply and add to the conversation! I am an improvisor at heart, and have a background in jazz guitar. I'm new to steel, but I can speak to some of this.
Sonny, to translate that to PSG, you really just need to move the bar 1 fret in either direction before achieving the target note, usually below sounds better.
Ultimately, improvisation is composition on the fly. So, if you were going to go home and pre-plan a solo to the song in question, you'd come back with something that quotes the melody heavily and diverts for the sake of showmanship. I think it's important to be able to call upon one's ability to run a scale quickly as one way to achieve this showmanship. Usually you'd divert and go really fast with like banjo rolls at the apex of the solo.
In jazz, we just kinda learn every option so we can call it up on a whim. From there, we're just bs'ing our way through the gig by spelling the chords and applying ornamentation like the chromatic approach lesson shown above. One of the most important things you do specific to jazz is practice melodies in all 12 keys before you claim to know it. It really helps you understand the relationship between the chords and the melody notes.
I've got a 14 year old six string student and I keep stressing to him the importance of being able to spell and play scales. He's been at it for 5 years and used to study with a famous blues guitarist. So, he wants to make everything the blues scale and then he's happy to go to town, so now I have to reel him back and get him spelling changes. If he knows the underlying scale, all he has to do is be able to play the chord arpeggio, and where the scale notes are and from there making bebop really isn't that bad.
Take the A Train has some great chord changes. I always say on songs like that with really strong harmonic movement (Country music with its big I IV Vs has pretty strong harmonic movement as well, modal jazz does not) the melody is almost halfway spelled out for you by the necessity of making it fit the chord changes. |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2018 3:40 am
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| Thanks Paul. |
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