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Author Topic:  John Call's intro to Amie
Dave Morrison

 

From:
Whbg Ohio Usa
Post  Posted 16 Jan 2019 11:10 am    
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OK GUYS; I JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH JOHN AND HE SAID HE HAS A HOLE TONE RAISE ON HIS RKR FOR THE 4TH STRING HE SAID HE DOES IT WITH THAT LEVER MOST TIMES BUT SOMETIMES HE REACHES OUT ANS GRABS THE FIRST STRING.ALSO FOUND OUT HE USES THE DAY SETUP WHICH I DIDN'T KNOW.
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Bob Carlucci

 

From:
Candor, New York, USA
Post  Posted 16 Jan 2019 12:10 pm    
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You guys are overthinking this.. play it by hitting the 1st string, and/or by using pedal 3 to raise string 4 a full tone... It all works, with a little different feel either way.. Simply play it the way it feels best.

It will sound great to each and every person that listens I promise.
If, I'm in the audience, I promise I won't jump to my feet screaming. "that guy cheated, he didn't use his knee lever!"... bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

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Tucker Jackson

 

From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 16 Jan 2019 1:14 pm    
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The mission here was never to figure out an easy way to play something very close. Me? I would hit the 1st string and move on. As you said, it sounds great and the audience doesn't care how it was done.

But that's not what the OP gave us as a problem to solve. He gave us a specific recording that has a bend in it that he questioned how it was done. The answer is not "don't play it that way." When I hear something that has a bend where I wouldn't normally have one, I also want to know the "how" and "why" just to get a little inside the steeler's head and maybe learn something new.

So we went down the admittedly nerdy road of trying to recreate it exactly, even though now that we know the answer, probably only 1% will ever actually do it that way. It's an intellectual exercise to gain knowledge. Overthinking it was the intention from the outset.... but not because we didn't understand that something similar could be easily played.
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Bob Carlucci

 

From:
Candor, New York, USA
Post  Posted 16 Jan 2019 4:57 pm    
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Tucker Jackson wrote:
The mission here was never to figure out an easy way to play something very close. Me? I would hit the 1st string and move on. As you said, it sounds great and the audience doesn't care how it was done.

But that's not what the OP gave us as a problem to solve. He gave us a specific recording that has a bend in it that he questioned how it was done. The answer is not "don't play it that way." When I hear something that has a bend where I wouldn't normally have one, I also want to know the "how" and "why" just to get a little inside the steeler's head and maybe learn something new.

So we went down the admittedly nerdy road of trying to recreate it exactly, even though now that we know the answer, probably only 1% will ever actually do it that way. It's an intellectual exercise to gain knowledge. Overthinking it was the intention from the outset.... but not because we didn't understand that something similar could be easily played.



I have known for decades that John Call used an E -F# knee lever.. Maybe thats the reason for my consternation. I guess not many guys knew about that.
Way back when the Live Takin' the Stage album came out I tried to get that exact feel and never really could -either on the first string or 3rd pedal..
Why? First John and I are different players, and although we both have chops, we are simply different players, and anything either us played would never be exactly alike..
Second, he raises that E a full tone on a lever, which very few of us do..

As with Ralph Mooney , raising E to F# on a separate pedal and using 2 feet, guys without that change have to "make do" with what we have.. I am not trying to be a downer, thats not my intention, but at times i guess I don't understand the preoccupation so many steel players have for one note on one song that they have trouble understanding..
I dunno, I am a " thats a weird sound and feel I can't nail 100%, so lets go with I can nail". "its real close and not one person on the planet will know the difference except me" kind of guy.. Want the exact feel John got on the Takin the stage album?? Gotta go with his set up first.
I imagine if we all put that change on a lever, and did an hour or two of wood shedding, it would be real close... Personally, its not worth the effort as most of the versions I have played were pretty decent, and never a complaint.. its just music is all, there's too much over analyzing it these days... bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......
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Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 16 Jan 2019 5:46 pm    
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I have come to respect Tuckers take on things quite a bit! I'm pretty sure he's smarter than me!
I was a lil torked off to learn I'd been unwittingly playing it different than the original, at first, too.
Now I know like 5 ways to play it!
I will make a fun video on it when I get back from Phoenix, including the guitar solo played on Steel!
It's fun to play any way you do it!
Smile
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Lynn Fargo


From:
Fort Edward, NY
Post  Posted 16 Jan 2019 5:50 pm    
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Norman Allen (the OP),

Thank you for taking the time to read my posts. I hope you get that maneuver down pat and make a video of it. If/when you do, please PM me so I don't miss it. Did you get a chance to look at Ruth's video?

Take care,
Lynn
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 17 Jan 2019 2:55 am    
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Bob Carlucci wrote:
You guys are overthinking this.. play it by hitting the 1st string, and/or by using pedal 3 to raise string 4 a full tone... It all works, with a little different feel either way.. Simply play it the way it feels best.

It will sound great to each and every person that listens I promise.
If, I'm in the audience, I promise I won't jump to my feet screaming. "that guy cheated, he didn't use his knee lever!"... bob


I guess my response is the same as Bobs.

Are we trying to play a musical phrase or are we trying to play something exactly like another person is playing it using their particular technique ? thats not a problem , it's a question.

In the past we read countless threads regarding Lloyd not have an E raise lever, 4th string I recall. Many folks would comment " if it's good enough for Lloyd it's good enough for me I don't need that lever ". All modern era Steels have the 4th string E raise.

My response to this is, yeah we need that lever, we are not Lloyd, there is a reason those E Raise levers are now standard on every Steel.

As Doug J says, find the music with the least amount of energy exerted as possible.


There is certainly nothing wrong with PULLING a string with a finger to achieve a note , but if it takes 6 months to master this technique and we have a gig next week, and that note is available using no energy, well...

We have redundancy up down and across the fret board, we change phrasing positions and "tactics" all the time, there is no right or wrong. We should use whatever position or phrasing positions that best fit our abilities to play the music. Personally that F# note flys by so fast we can miss it and nobody would be the wiser Shocked

Its all good and it's all correct.

Those of you that know John say Hi to him for me, he's been a major influence in my journey, he still is !
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<b>Steel Guitar music here >>> http://www.tprior.com/five.htm</b>

Emmons Steels, Fender Telecasters
Pro Tools 8 and Pro Tools 12
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Tucker Jackson

 

From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 17 Jan 2019 11:52 am    
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"Are we trying to play a musical phrase or are we trying to play something exactly like another person is playing it using their particular technique?"

Clearly, the OP was asking how to play something exactly like another person played it. We happily went down that path -- and got the answer.

Knowing the answer doesn't mean we should also play it that way! It's just nice to know so we can make our own decision, based on our copedent and skill level. Note: I won't be pulling any strings with my finger. But I support the exercise to learn how Call played it because sometimes I learn a cool new trick that I do want to put in my lick bag.
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 17 Jan 2019 2:43 pm    
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Tucker Jackson wrote:
"Are we trying to play a musical phrase or are we trying to play something exactly like another person is playing it using their particular technique?"

Clearly, the OP was asking how to play something exactly like another person played it. We happily went down that path -- and got the answer.

Knowing the answer doesn't mean we should also play it that way! It's just nice to know so we can make our own decision, based on our copedent and skill level. Note: I won't be pulling any strings with my finger. But I support the exercise to learn how Call played it because sometimes I learn a cool new trick that I do want to put in my lick bag.


and I totally agree !
_________________
<b>Steel Guitar music here >>> http://www.tprior.com/five.htm</b>

Emmons Steels, Fender Telecasters
Pro Tools 8 and Pro Tools 12
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Bob Carlucci

 

From:
Candor, New York, USA
Post  Posted 18 Jan 2019 5:26 am    
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Tony Prior wrote:
Bob Carlucci wrote:
You guys are overthinking this.. play it by hitting the 1st string, and/or by using pedal 3 to raise string 4 a full tone... It all works, with a little different feel either way.. Simply play it the way it feels best.

It will sound great to each and every person that listens I promise.
If, I'm in the audience, I promise I won't jump to my feet screaming. "that guy cheated, he didn't use his knee lever!"... bob


I guess my response is the same as Bobs.

Are we trying to play a musical phrase or are we trying to play something exactly like another person is playing it using their particular technique ? thats not a problem , it's a question.

In the past we read countless threads regarding Lloyd not have an E raise lever, 4th string I recall. Many folks would comment " if it's good enough for Lloyd it's good enough for me I don't need that lever ". All modern era Steels have the 4th string E raise.

My response to this is, yeah we need that lever, we are not Lloyd, there is a reason those E Raise levers are now standard on every Steel.

As Doug J says, find the music with the least amount of energy exerted as possible.


There is certainly nothing wrong with PULLING a string with a finger to achieve a note , but if it takes 6 months to master this technique and we have a gig next week, and that note is available using no energy, well...

We have redundancy up down and across the fret board, we change phrasing positions and "tactics" all the time, there is no right or wrong. We should use whatever position or phrasing positions that best fit our abilities to play the music. Personally that F# note flys by so fast we can miss it and nobody would be the wiser Shocked

Its all good and it's all correct.

Those of you that know John say Hi to him for me, he's been a major influence in my journey, he still is !


I will never understand how Lloyd played so many great parts for so long without the E-F change.. i suppose he used bar slants and just never gave a thought to the "easier" path.. I'll say this- I would trade my E-F lever for his technique any day of the century... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 19 Jan 2019 5:04 am    
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I believe the answer is fairly easy regarding the early iconic players ( pioneers) and how they did things. They didn't have yesterday what we have today, they had to FIND a way to go forward. In addition many of them began life on a NON Pedal instrument , they brought over a skill that had already been cast in concrete. They took what they already KNEW and was part of the everyday routine and just added it to the new Steel with all the gadgets !

The earliest Steels did not come with the Crawford Cluster ! Laughing

Today we play the Steels with all the modern era gadgets and shake our heads to try to comprehend how those early players did what they did.

I recall seeing Maurice at St Louis in the Jazz room one year playing an 8 string Super Slide. It was amazing. He was tearing it up playing incredible phrasing at speed, effortlessly. I asked him later in the day about it , the songs he was playing on the Super Slide vs the C6 / D10, he commented something like " thats where I come from and it just feels so natural". He didn't say one was better than the other just that he was extremely comfortable playing from a place where he began ! He did say that one vs the other made him think REAL fast while playing !
_________________
<b>Steel Guitar music here >>> http://www.tprior.com/five.htm</b>

Emmons Steels, Fender Telecasters
Pro Tools 8 and Pro Tools 12
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