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Topic: Old Changers - dark guitars and stainless steel strings. |
Ed Boyd
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 25 Oct 2018 1:52 pm |
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I have this old lacquered maple MSA. I think it was built around 74. All stock except a 5th knee lever I. The guitar is really dark compared to my Sho-Bud. It needs new strings and I would like to brighten the tone. Would you try stainless steel strings? or would stainless put more stress on the old guitar. The tuning on the E9 stops are drifting which is a good sign the old thing needs new strings.... I thought I might try some stainless steel strings.
If stainless steel strings would be hard on the old guitar I could try a different pickup. I have a George L's of some sort in the Sho-Bud and it sounds great.
Any thoughts. I like the old guitar and don't want to hurt it.
Thanks for the help.
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Laquered MSA Classic D10 8+5
Sho-Bud Pro 1
Various Dobro and Banjos
Fender Telecaster Guitars |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Oct 2018 2:36 pm
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| We really need to know about your amp, the settings you're using, and your volume pedal. All those have a big effect on the tone. Also, old strings usually hold tuning better than new ones (they just sound crappy), so your "tuning drift" may be due to the guitar being over-tuned, oe not enough wraps on the keys. |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 25 Oct 2018 3:01 pm
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Ed, stainless strings won't hurt that MSA. They might brighten up the tone a bit, but not knowing what your whole setup consists of, it's very difficult to give you sound advice.
Just describe your whole rig and we can suggest ways to get you where you want to go.
As to the tuning drift you refer to, it could be time for a tear-down and cleaning. Over the years, gunk builds up in the moving parts making them get stiff...little by little. Next thing you know she won't play in tune, or the pulls don't work right, etc. A total cleaning and lube will likely work wonders for your old girl.
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Best regards,
Mike |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 25 Oct 2018 4:34 pm
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Try Alumitone pickups.
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Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 25 Oct 2018 6:56 pm
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String tension is determined by the core, not by the winding. Stainless wound strings do not have more tension that nickel wound strings. The steel cores are the same in both.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Ed Boyd
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 25 Oct 2018 8:58 pm
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Thanks everyone.
The guitar was torn down and cleaned and rebuilt in the Spring of 2016. Once the strings initially stretch in about the only thing I usually need to do is tune the guitar from the tuning heads and I never hardly tune the pedals. Then it seem that eventually when the strings get so old I need to adjust the pedals before I play. The tech who rebuilt my MSA bypassed the fuzz circuit and pots. The neck selector switch still works but other than that it is straight to the output jack bypassing all that other stuff. He said the fuzz sounded terrible. The previous owner didn't use it either.
I had only planned on cleaning and oiling the changer. This time. Tri-Flow is what I use. I guess that is an OK oil. I could also use Hammond oil. I have a lot of that on hand. I'm a keyboard player by trade.
My rig is either an old original Nashville 400 (silver corners with the first Black Widow speaker not the later model) with no mods. The amp setting are pretty much the Peavey suggested setting. Pre-Gain set to desired volume/ Post gain cranked / Low cranked/ Mid 10:00/ Shift 800K/High 1:00/ Presence 1:00/ Reverb varies.
I've been gigging with a Boss Katana 100. Usually set to Acoustic Mode with Bass at 3:00 / Mids at 11:00 / Treble at 1:00 / and Reverb between 12:00 and 3:00.
I wasn't really ever too displeased with the sound of the MSA until I got a Sho-Bud Pro I a month or two ago. It's brighter and I like the tone a lot. It has some sort of George L's pickup.
From the guitar I go to a Peterson Tuner then to a Goodrich L-120 then to my amp. I'm using no other effects now. I'm getting my effects from the Katana. If using the Nashville I will play through a delay pedal.
Too my ears the optimum amps setting seem to be fairly close between the two guitars. But the Sho-Bud had more of something I like...
I guess I was wanting to the MSA to sound more like the Sho-Bud I guess. Maybe that is like wanting a Tele to sound like a Les Paul .... it just doesn't do it. I don't know.
Either way it has been about a year. The guitar needs strings.
Thanks again everyone. You guys are great.
_________________
Laquered MSA Classic D10 8+5
Sho-Bud Pro 1
Various Dobro and Banjos
Fender Telecaster Guitars |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2018 12:46 am
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| I agree with K Maul. I have a new MSA with interchangeable pups, and the Alumitone is the brightest by far. I posted about Sho-Bud tone a while back, and the consensus is that only a Bud sounds like a Bud. The Alumitone (E9) is my favorite in my MSA, followed by the Telonics XP (I think it is). |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2018 7:05 am
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Right. Only a Bud sounds like a Bud. I use a Tech 21 Q\Strip to approximate that sound with my Ross Shafer Sierra on certain songs. Here are my settings:
My pickup is a Telonics. The Q\Strip does a very good job of changing the basic timbre of a pickup, but it can't do really radical things like making a pedal steel sound like a dobro.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 27 Oct 2018 9:02 am
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| Ed Boyd wrote: |
I guess I was wanting to the MSA to sound more like the Sho-Bud I guess. Maybe that is like wanting a Tele to sound like a Les Paul .... it just doesn't do it. I don't know.
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That's it. I play a MSA Vintage XL through a Session 400 and have mostly given up trying to make it sound like other instruments. What I know is that a lot of good music was played through those old MSA's. I think the best you can do is find your instrument's voice and enhance that. For me, the struggle has been to get brightness without being harsh/piercing while having enough bass without being muddy. Using regular nickel strings, my current tone settings are almost identical to yours, except I have the presence cranked:
Sensitivity = 8-10
Volume = to suit room
Bass = 9
Shift = 6.5 (about 750k)
Mid = 10
Treble = 1-2
Presence = 10 |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 27 Oct 2018 9:58 am
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e66 pickups are a good starting point to brighten up an MSA. The darkness is in the pickupsnot
I liked the SS pickups direct to board though.
IIRC Maurice was a jazz oriented musician and even in acoustic jazz guitars and amp settings the yonal signatures of that genre tends toward dark and mellow..
I don't mind dark and mellow tones. |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2018 10:45 am
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| Bob, I don't mean to sound ignorant but, is the Q/Strip like, a parametric EQ? Never been one with a knack for devices, but it seems like it might be something to try out. |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2018 10:48 am
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| Tommy Mc, I agree that finding the voice in the guitar is the way to go. I will reiterate how much I love the Alumitone pup in my Legend - it has sweet highs and good tight lows. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2018 1:48 pm
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| Bobby Nelson wrote: |
| Bob, I don't mean to sound ignorant but, is the Q/Strip like, a parametric EQ? Never been one with a knack for devices, but it seems like it might be something to try out. |
Yes, it's a parametric EQ. Very clean. It can also function as a direct box because it has both 1/4" and XLR outputs. It's powered by a 9v battery or 9v DC power supply, or it can use phantom power through the XLR from a PA.
In spite of the name, it doesn't have 'Q' (band width) controls, so you can't do really radical things with it. I run it before the volume pedal.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 29 Oct 2018 5:47 pm Old changers - dark guitars and stainless steel strings
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I hear you and what you are looking for. For about 18 years I played a Formica MSA S10 born July 9, 1974 it had a sort of dark sound . I put George L stainless strings on it and it brightened it some. I put a switch under the guitar that I can switch from the Factory Volume and Tone controls to direct by reaching under the guitar and flipping the switch. That helped brighten it more when switched direct.
I have thought about getting it out and running it through the electronics I use now. An Evans 200 amp, New Eminence 15" speaker and a Budda Samsara Delay stomp box. It sure brightened up my present guitar.
Does your MSA have the 12 tuner key Head? My MSA has 10 strings with a 12 key head. That makes for a long section of dead string in the key head on strings 4-5-6-7. I had problems with tuning drift, I cleaned the Nut Rollers. Shaft had fine rust, I polished the roller shaft with 0000 steel wool, and lubed it with Zebco Silicone Fishing Reel Grease. Checked and cleaned the roller slots to help eliminate any roller drag. Had no tuning drift after cleaning and lubing the Nut Roller Assembly.
Good Luck in getting this Old Work Horse back in shape and Happy Steelin. |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 30 Oct 2018 11:50 pm Psg
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| Curly Chalker comes to mind when I think of the MSA's. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2018 9:00 am
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Buy a Lawrence 710 pickup ,,,
It has the capability to go rear single coil/both coils humbucking/front single coil.. Your maple body MSA will sound like exactly what it is.. A great old vintage steel with single coil pickups.. MSA stock pickups have always been dark sounding... Get either a humbucker that can isolate coils with a switch, or if you want a single coil sound which all sho buds have simply put a single coil wound at around 14 K in it... Another great pickup for MSA if you can find one is the GeorgeL 10-5.. Has a 5 way switch with full humbucker to single coil with coil taps.. VERY good sounding pickup that will give you exactly what you want... bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2018 9:17 am
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Hey Ed,, if you are interested I can give you an idea of what your might MSA sound like with the correct single coils by providing links to my old MSA guitars on studio recordings that are still on the net. PM me if you would like to hear what an MSA can sound like with "old school sound" in mind.
You won't get the exact sound of a Bud, they are different guitars.. However those old MSA guitars really respond to vintage or more lightly wound pickups, and you can get fairly close. bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Ed Boyd
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2018 6:16 pm
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Thanks Bob! That would be great.
_________________
Laquered MSA Classic D10 8+5
Sho-Bud Pro 1
Various Dobro and Banjos
Fender Telecaster Guitars |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2018 9:09 am
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Ed.. check your PM.. I have sent you links to studio sessions I have done over the years on my old early 70's MSA with lightly wound single coils, and a Sho Bud Pro III.. See what you think, personally I always thought the MSA had more of that "vintage" pedal steel ring then that particular Bud.. It doesn't sound exactly like a Bud, but occupies that "sonic space" pretty well..
Remember, these are sessions with artists/bands, and you have to listen around guitars, drums, vocals etc, but there is plenty of steel to get an idea of what your guitar is capable of sounding like when properly equipped.. The Bud songs I included for comparison are notated as Bud.. all ease was done with a battered old MSA with mica body, and vintage wound single coils...
that guitar was awful until i got the right pickups in it, and it "woke up",,
The sound you seek can be achieved, its not that difficult, and a lacquer MSA is as good a vehicle for getting as anything else, unless of course you opt for a real Sho bud... bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Ed Boyd
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2018 4:16 pm
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Thanks a lot Bob.
_________________
Laquered MSA Classic D10 8+5
Sho-Bud Pro 1
Various Dobro and Banjos
Fender Telecaster Guitars |
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