Does cabinet drop exist or not?

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

I'm in a discussion through e-mail with another steeler about cabinet drop. He contends there is no such thing and that it is actually hysterisis but not the flexing of the cabinet. So if that's the case, then what is it that the counterforce does on the Emmons Legrande III guitars? So is the cabinet flexing, hysterisis the Bermuda triangle or just what? If it's not cabinet drop, then why do we all call it that?

Jerry Erickson · From: Atlanta,IL 61723

Hook up your tuner to your steel. Play the 4th string on your E9 neck and press(or mash) the first two pedals and see what your tuner does. Odds are that your tuner will tell you that your 4th string went flat.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

So, your 4th string went flat! What did that prove? Look for one that went sharp and explain that, if possible!

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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
’05 D–10 Derby
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15”
Current Equipment

Ron ! · Posted 25 Jan 2006 8:32 pm

All steel guitars that I know of have a little or a lot Body-Drop.I build steel-guitars that almost have none.

"The Magnum" has none.That is what everybody tells me.I did not have the pleasure to try "The Magnum".
I hope there will be a day that I can hear it with my own two ears.

As far as I can tell you Frank....Body-drop does exist.
I have a build in compensator to try and lift the body-drop.And till now that compensator is doing it's job very well.I have to say that I am experimenting with it and there is only one steelguitar of mine that has it so far.

Ron

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KRS Guitars
KRS D-10 8x7, KRS SD10 4x6 EMMONS P/P S10 3x5
Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Ultra 15" Peavey All Tube 15"
Fender Twin Reverb Hilton Volumepedal Hilton Sustain

[This message was edited by Ronald Steenwijk on 25 January 2006 at 08:33 PM.]

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

I'd be much more willing to agree that maybe ‘de~tuning’ occurs, when pedals are activated, but; not the actual warping of the body~shape itself! Something else is happening to put it O.O.T. with itself! I should be a genious. Then I'd know the answer to the problem, but; so far people are only learning how to correct the problem. But, that's a positive step!

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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
’05 D–10 Derby
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15”
Current Equipment

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

Yes it exists alright - in varying degrees, but has concerned people more since the advent of the electronic tuner. My advice would be to forget about it and get on with the enjoyment of playing.

Micky Byrne · From: United Kingdom (deceased)

Totally agree Ken me old mate.Just listen to all the great steel playing now and from years gone by and do any of us hear any "cabinet drop" I don't think so. Keep picking and enjoying.

Micky Byrne, England

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

so when Buddy recorded the Black Album..you know, the one we are all still listening to...
the one he played on a very early PUSH PULL..( Blade ? ) before we all probably ever even heard the term Cabinet Drop..

Can we hear the cabinet drop on that recording ? Does it exist ?

Did Loyd have Cabinet drop on his early built LDG on those thousands of recordings ?

just throwin it out there...

t

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 26 January 2006 at 03:37 AM.]

Steven Black · From: Gahanna, Ohio, USA

cabinet drop does occur, and where it happens is where the wood meets the end plates, the endplates lips or shelf is not very deep nor can it be deep or the wood would be inserted two far below the endplate edges, over time with the tension of the strings which is in pounds per inch draws the ends of the guitar up and the center drops, but as I said time and age of the guitar depends on this happening, metal frame guitars does not have this happen.

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

Many years ago before electronioc tuners and the term cabinet drop (at least i had never heard the term),when i raised te 5th string on my new msa the 6th went slightly flat.I called Reece and he told me to put a wound on the 6th and that would cure the problem.I did and it did.
The change shows up else where but the steel can be temper tuned so it is no big deal.Many will not notice it so don't use an electronic tuner looking for it.LOL.But if you do,learn to live with it.It is no big deal.
I would suggest reading Bud Carters web sight about this subject.Tracy

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Tony, my friend, I cannot BELIEVE you never noticed how much Lloyd and Buddy were out of tune! I'm listening to "Four Wheel Drive" right now, and it's---almost PAINFUL, is what it is...

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

it must be the lag related to the amount of fun I had in the 60's..

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 26 January 2006 at 05:41 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

As has been pointed out, 'cabinet drop' is only ONE of many causes of detuning. Detuning most assuredly DOES occur, to some degree or other, on every guitar I've ever played. The LLIII counterforce system which mechanically 'tunes it out' is the only system I've seen that completely eliminates it.

If you believe your guitar has 'no detuning', do the following:
If you use an unwound sixth on E9, tune it STRAIGHT UP on an electronic tuner
Press the A pedal down very firmly
Read the tuner
Every guitar I've ever owned detunes somewhat using this test. The LLIII is the only one I've ever seen that can eliminate this deflection.
If you use a wound sixth, do the same test using the 5th string and press the B pedal.

I have had guitars that detune very little and have had some that are so noticeable I've had to sell them. My opinion has always been if you can't hear it, it's not a problem. There are other problems, like thermal expansion of strings, that can't be 'tuned out'. Playing a steel guitar in tune is always a challenge but we have many recorded examples, both from days gone by and recent times, that prove it IS possible.

Does cabinet drop exist? Bet yer boots it does.
Is it the only cause of detuning? Nope -- there are mechanical effects like axle flex and thermal phenomena that all add up to a less than perfect machine but most have learned to live with it.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

I believe cabinet drop has become what we call the RESULT of several things happening that CAUSE the de-tuning "problem" we cuss and discuss so much.

In a sterile setting with no other noise I can hear the de-tuning on my Mullen guitar. That held true back when I was playing an Emmons push/pull. It's not much, but it is audible. But on the bandstand? It's just not a problem.

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Mullen U-12, Evans FET-500, Fender Steel King

Mark Vinbury · From: N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA

I'm having trouble understanding "Cabinet Drop".It must be a misnomer.
It doesn't seem likly that the sides of the guitar can bend in that direction.

The additional pull to raise a string must be about 5 lbs. I picture this as equivalent to trying to edgeset a 1 1/2 inch thick(two 3/4" sides)by 4 inch wide hardwood board by compressing it end for end with a bar clamp and 5 lbs. pressure.

I also don't see how the end plates can have anything to do with it.Are the strings even attached to them?

My guess is that the axel going thru the changer could flex.It has both the string tension and rod pull hauling on it.Plus it is already under 300 lbs.or more,pressure.
I never understood why these shafts aren't larger dia., thick wall tube.Maybe they are in some guitars.
Also could the keyhead flex a little in between the mounting screws? Especially some that are just barstock set at an angle.
Is this why Herb Remington bows these bars outward? That outward bow doesn't make sense in terms of string pull/alignment.
Has anyone ever set up a dial indicator on the various parts to see what is bending?

[This message was edited by Mark Vinbury on 26 January 2006 at 08:59 AM.]

Howard Tate · From: Leesville, Louisiana, USA, R.I.P.

I remember a post by Tom Bradshaw where he said to strike the sixth string while connected to a tuner, and press down on the middle of the guitar. I did that and saw a drop. It was not noticable while playing the Zum because it has compensators. On the Carter it's more noticable, no compensators.

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Wish I'd learned lap steel when I still had a lap.

Dick Wood · From: Springtown Texas, USA

Try pressing your 5th and 6th pedals at the same time and see what happens on the E9th neck. Somethin just ain't right.

Body and/or endplate flex could easily be proven or disproven with a DRO if someone wanted to take the time effort and energy to do so.

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Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night.

David Doggett · Posted 26 Jan 2006 8:26 am

Well, who knows where it comes from (cabinet flex or mechanical slack), but you can lean on the middle of most pedal steels and see the meter drop, and maybe hear it. You can also see cabinet rise on the meter when you use a whole step lower lever, even though you are moving the lever sideways. You can't hear this in most people's playing, because the bar and vibrato compensate on slow stuff, and you just don't notice it on fast stuff. So we may not hear it, but if it didn't bother the top pros, they wouldn't be using compensators, correction mechanisms, metal frames and other things top brands use to minimize the problem these days.

The biggest problems arise with open strings at the nut, compared to other instruments tuned straight up. You can minimize that by using a meter to measure the drop of your E strings when you press the A and B pedals together. Take half the drop and tune your no-pedal Es that much sharp. Then when you press the pedals, the Es will only go half of the drop flat. This works better than tuning the Es straight up with either the pedals up or down, which guarantees you will be perfect in one position, but the other will be off by the whole drop. On the other hand, if you only play open at the nut with no pedals, then you will be better off tuning straight up that way.

And of course, if you can't hear the problem, it doesn't exist. But try playing some pedaled and unpedaled open string unison notes with a guitar player who is tuned straight up. That's when it will be most noticeable.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Could some of it be attributed to the axle at the changer flexing ?

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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Virtually every substance that we know has some degree of flex. The fact that we prefer to make instruments from natural materials like wood, ensures that there will be some degree of compression under tension.

Do wooden cabinets flex?
Trees certainly do sway in the wind.

when we string up an instrument, we don't only tune each string, but tune to the overall string tension, which is quite high. The flex in the body, and contact points will be unnoticeable to the eye, but must be there.

When you increase the tension of various strings, the relationship of tension amongst the other strings will change. The string that is more tense will take a greater share of the load, and the other strings will slack.

They come across these sorts of problems in suspension bridge building, although they are dealing with a structure that isn't as rigid as a maple cabinet. If a cable is too short, it will take too much tension over the surrounding cables, pulling a section of bridge up, and slacking the other cables.

Translate that to an instrument with a fixed body length...essentially when depressing a pedal or lever you are shortening the amount of cable that is spanning the cabinet, and it will try to pull the two ends together at greater tension than the adjacent strings, slacking them.

This can be seen in an extreme way with an instrument that is meant to be under tension at all times. Try detuning an acoustic guitar. Sure, it is very flexible, but it will give you a good way to look at the tension differences. Tune it down to standard tuning relationships, a fourth lower, way down with B as the bottom string.
Now, tune it back up, one string at a time, to the tuner. Then, go back over it, and notice how terribly flat the previous strings have become. They no longer need to support the same sort of tension they started with, as the other strings are now contributing to the overall tension and flex of the instrument. Obviously an acoustic guitar is an extreme example, but it is handy for a flex test.

Under a couple hundred pounds of pressure, the instrument is already flexing, albeit unnoticeably. When pressing pedals or levers, you are changing the relationships of tension in the cables that are trying to maintain that flex.

The answer to eliminating this phenomenon would be to make the body of the instrument as rigid as possible, and to try to seperate each string from one another as much as possible, at the changer, nut, and tuners. Also bringing the strings down lower to the body would help to reduce torque on the body, and stress at the changer and nut, as the tension would be spread across the body in a more linear fashion.

Hey, that sounds a bit like the ideas Gene Fields is working with. A ultra-rigid Die Board body and lower string height.
(I don't have one yet, but I want one.)

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Howard Tate wrote:

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Cabinet drop exists, as any tech with a strain gage and instrumentation could attest. Does it matter? I don't think I'll ever be proficient enough for it to make a difference.
Mechanics of Materials slogan: Everything moves when loaded.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I tune my sixth string in from -15 normal to -10 cents. That extra five eliminates the problem and I'm still tempered. Still I tune mostly by ear now and use the meter as reference. All my other thirds and sixths are -15 cents.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

An example of why not to worry.A few years ago I had the chance to play a guitar Tommy White had traded. I will not mention the brand.But's very popular. This guitar had cabinet drop, no lower return compensators.This Co had options to help correct all of this.I said to the builder.I can't beleive Tommy doesn't want lower return comps.He said. Me neither. I asked?How does he get away with it.The builders reply. I guess his ear is just that good.Meaning he could compensate with the bar.Now I can compensate with the bar for average cab drop. But not for the problem caused by not having lower return compensators.As a matter of fact. All three of my personal guitars have them.I would not play the brand I play without them.Having said that. I do have a lot of whole tone lowers.And whole tone lowers really tell the tell when it comes to returning to pitch.Most any good guitar will lower a string a 1/2 tone and return within 5 cents of pitch with out return comps.However I feel lower return comps should be standard equipment on todays guitars.They have been on a Franklin since day one. But some guitars do need them more than others.

Now, I have no idea what options Tommy has on his current guitars. But I have never heard Tommy sound out of tune on any brand guitar.I used to watch or tape most every nite he was on TNN.

The one exception to Tommy being out of tune.Was an instruction video he did using an Emmons PP. His being out of tune had nothing to do with the above mention problems. The guitar just needed tuning.He even mention being out of tune.But went ahead and finished what he was teaching.

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[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 26 January 2006 at 11:36 AM.]

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