| Author |
Topic: Making pedal steel sound like old-fashioned lap steel |
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 8 Oct 2018 4:58 pm |
|
A friend is asking me to accompany him and his buddy for a small set of roots country music (e.g. Hank Williams) on the local public radio.
I'm a pedal steel player who doesn't own or play a lap/console steel. What's the best way for me to try to replicate that sound? I play through a Nashville 112 and have a multi-effects unit that can create a lot of different tones, albeit crudely. |
|
|
|
Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
|
Posted 8 Oct 2018 5:57 pm
|
|
| Learn the tunes without pedals or levers. That’ll avoid most modern cliches. Lots of stuff to find with your bar and the occasional jump and down the neck on E9 tuning (way easier if you happen to have a C6 neck sitting in front of you!) |
|
|
|
Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
|
|
|
|
Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
|
Posted 8 Oct 2018 6:11 pm
|
|
Or stomp the A and B pedal and keep them there, which gives you an extended A6.
OK, I’ll shut up now! |
|
|
|
Barry Blackwood
|
Posted 8 Oct 2018 6:22 pm
|
|
What Ken says.  |
|
|
|
Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
|
Posted 8 Oct 2018 7:00 pm Re: Making pedal steel sound like old-fashioned lap steel
|
|
| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| What's the best way for me to try to replicate that sound? |
The best way would be to beg/borrow/steal/purchase a decent vintage lap steel (they're not that expensive) and a smallish tube amp. Problem solved. But beware -- vintage lap steels are addicting. |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 8 Oct 2018 7:08 pm
|
|
Tunings were more 6th oriented, so having a C6 neck makes it easier. But one can get a lot of the typical 6th-tuning sounds even with a basic E9 setup:
- E9 gives an open B6 tuning, on everything but string 9, with the E=>Eb lever engaged;
- E9 also gives a very usable A6 tuning with A+B pedals down, on everything but strings 2 and 9, as Ken mentions.
On the other hand, most modern pedal steels don't have the tonality of, let's say, a late-40s or early 50s Fender or Gibson console steel or Rickenbacker lap, as was often used on those old recordings. Construction is different, there's no changer, typically no roller nut, and those old pickups tend to have a lot more treble end. The amps of the day were also a lot more direct - very different. No scooped midrange, no reverb, tend to distort more easily.
If I really were hell bent to get an older sound out of a pedal steel, I'd probably install a much less wound pickup, or even better, get something like a Wallace True Tone with one or more coil taps, maybe one down around 8-10K, and run it into an old tweed amp or something comparable. Lots of good-quality repros being made these days - the tweed circuits are much more straightforward to repro than, let's say, blackface or silverface Fenders.
Another option is to just suck it up and buy a vintage 6 or 8 string lap steel. They're not really very expensive, they're easy to tote, and pretty easy to deal with as an adjunct to pedal steel. I periodically find those old Valco-made (National, Supro, Airline, etc.) 6-stringers for a couple hundred dollars or less. Some sellers ask a lot more, but they're out there reasonable if I beat the bushes. Even something like a pre-war Model 59 Rickenbacher isn't really very expensive. And they all sound great, I'm really diggin' getting into these - it all came up because some people I know wanted to start a hillbilly/rockabilly band and they really want the old-school nonpedal sound. Can do.
PS - if you wanna see what can be done with a little 6-string lap steel by someone who really knows what they're doing, take a gander at Doug Beaumier's outstanding youtube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0aCXqg4vjKL1DLWrxCcFTw - or go to his website - http://playsteelguitar.com/. You don't need a ton of gizmos to play Hank Williams songs. |
|
|
|
Per Berner
From:
Skövde, Sweden
|
Posted 8 Oct 2018 10:25 pm
|
|
| Very interesting topic. Any tips on amp settings for a typical Peavey pedal steel amp for getting that vintage sound, for a modern steel or an old console steel respectively? |
|
|
|
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
|
Posted 9 Oct 2018 5:35 am
|
|
Per,
Maybe try using a touch of overdrive from a Sarno Earth Drive.
_________________
Bob |
|
|
|
gary pierce
From:
Rossville TN
|
Posted 9 Oct 2018 11:19 am
|
|
| Lower E's, and no reverb. |
|
|
|
Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
|
Posted 10 Oct 2018 10:04 am
|
|
It occurs to me that a lot of the sound came from those smallish (2 6v6) tube amps. Most of the old lap steel amps I've used for guitar were of that tube arraignment. They have a thicker, (browner maybe?) bassier sound than bigger amps. What you do not get with them is overhead. You cannot use them with a modern band, and be heard. Maybe, you could replicate the tone with a stompbox EQ/booster - I have an old DOD like this that was very good at changing the timbre of larger amps I'd used. I tried just a stompbox EQ and didn't get the same results - it had to be EQ/boost.
Last edited by Bobby Nelson on 10 Oct 2018 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 10 Oct 2018 11:41 am
|
|
For that 6th sound from the 50s, here's what I do:
- Use the pedals, but never change when a note is sustaining.
- On E9th, you can alternate between two basic tunings: E13th (the A pedal) and B6th (the E lower lever).
- Two frets down from a 6th chord is its 9th chord (except for one string).
- Only use reverb on slow songs.
- A slap-back echo works in rock-a-billy
- A tube amp is the best way to get the right tone
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 10 Oct 2018 11:47 am
|
|
| Per Berner wrote: |
| Very interesting topic. Any tips on amp settings for a typical Peavey pedal steel amp for getting that vintage sound, for a modern steel or an old console steel respectively? |
I agree with Bob Hoffnar - a Sarno Earth Drive set at a low level adds the kind of "hair" that the old tube amps had.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 10 Oct 2018 3:08 pm
|
|
b0b's suggestions are very good. The only thing I would add, if I wanted to sound "vintage", would be to stay off the first 3 strings. Those strings have a thin and whiny character which we didn't hear until the '60s.  |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 10 Oct 2018 4:31 pm Donny's right
|
|
Both Don Helms and Little Roy Wiggins had a high G# string, but it was thicker (probably .012) because the shorter scale. It's hard to get that tone out of an E9th pedal steel, but you can play the same notes they played, at the same frets.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 11 Oct 2018 7:32 am
|
|
I wouldn’t worry too much about using pedals and levers. Players back then were slanting the bar and pulling strings behind the bar and playing 2 or 3 necks in the same song because they wanted different chord voicings and easier ways to play certain licks. Like b0b said though, limit the changing during sustained 2 or 3 note combinations.
Tone is what you’re after, and being true to the music. The flattened midrange does seem to have been very popular in the 40’s-50’s. It cuts through without having to boost volume. Speaking of volume, did they even have volume pedals back then? Most of the swelling seems to have been done with tone knobs on the console. |
|
|
|
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 11 Oct 2018 8:32 am
|
|
| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Tone is what you’re after, and being true to the music. The flattened midrange does seem to have been very popular in the 40’s-50’s. It cuts through without having to boost volume. Speaking of volume, did they even have volume pedals back then? Most of the swelling seems to have been done with tone knobs on the console. |
This may be a dumb question, but what would a flattened midrange mean in adjusting the knobs on my amp? Turning the 'mid knob' to a low level? Doing that combined with avoiding the higher strings could make it sound really 'boom-y'. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 11 Oct 2018 8:58 am
|
|
| It’s not a dumb question at all. The midrange control on NV 112 is a parametric, if I’m not mistaken, with a cut knob. So it is going to be tricky getting a mid boost in the frequency range you want. There must be a NV112 user around here somewhere who can explain... Cut your bass control to lower the boom. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 11 Oct 2018 9:09 am
|
|
By the way, you should buy a lap steel. They are really handy for jam sessions, open mic nights and any other place where you want to set up and tear down quickly with no fuss.
Learning to slant the bar will come in real handy on pedal steel, too.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
|
Posted 11 Oct 2018 10:22 am
|
|
| b0b wrote: |
By the way, you should buy a lap steel. They are really handy for jam sessions, open mic nights and any other place where you want to set up and tear down quickly with no fuss.
Learning to slant the bar will come in real handy on pedal steel, too. |
Couldn't agree more.
Bar slants are one reason I've downsized to a 3 x 1 for lots of situations these days. Much easier on the back than a full D-10. Never would have even considered slants in the days before I learned to play a 6-string instrument without pedals.
Opposite from many of you, I learned to play on 10-string pedal steel, then worked my way back to 6-string/no pedals. Sometimes, less is more. |
|
|
|
Steve Knight
From:
NC
|
Posted 11 Oct 2018 11:15 am
|
|
| Jack Hanson wrote: |
Opposite from many of you, I learned to play on 10-string pedal steel, then worked my way back to 6-string/no pedals. Sometimes, less is more. |
Me, too. The first time I took my D-10 to a festival where we played 2 & 3 times per day, all on different stages, I really got tired of setup, teardown, moving it, etc. The 6-string lap is a nice light alternative. And it's a ton of fun to play after only playing PSG. |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 11 Oct 2018 11:40 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| This may be a dumb question, but what would a flattened midrange mean in adjusting the knobs on my amp? Turning the 'mid knob' to a low level? Doing that combined with avoiding the higher strings could make it sound really 'boom-y'. |
I said in my earlier post that more modern amps, especially blackface and silverface Fenders and their like, often tended to have more of a "scooped" midrange. That's the type of thing you'd get by turning the midrange control to a low level. The old tweed Fender and other vintage amps of the late 40s and 50s did not have such a scooped midrange.
But your Nashville 112 (I have one too) has a semi-parametric midrange control. If you look at the manual - https://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/nashville112.pdf - you'll see that the Low, Mid, High, and Presence EQ controls are active, and they can both amplify and attenuate their respective frequency bands, and the Shift control sets the center (but not the width) of the midrange frequency band. At "0", the tone controls (Bass, Mid, Treble) do nothing; as the control is turned clockwise, they amplify that band by the number of dBs on the dial up to +15dB; as the control is turned counterclockwise, they attenuate that band similarly, up to -15dB.
To me, the honky midrange that is typically notched out in modern amps occurs with a center frequency around 700-800 Hz. Think blackface/silverface Fenders, and a lot of pedal steel players dial that general range out quite a lot. Pretty easy adding it back at will with a NV 112. Play with the EQ controls, they do a lot.
I like a Seymour Duncan Twin Tube Classic (more like a tweed Bassman or Marshall) or Blue (more like cranking a blackface/silverface amp) to give a NV 112 a bit more tube-like sound. They have a pair of subminiature tubes that are not plate-starved, and I like what they do to warm that amp up.
But as I said earlier, I'd probably just get a relatively inexpensive vintage lap steel and a small vintage or vintage-style amp. Tweed Fenders are expensive, but there are lots of lesser known ones that are reasonable - e.g., Valco (Supro, Oahu, Airline, etc.), Gibson, and others, that don't have to break the bank. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 11 Oct 2018 11:47 am
|
|
| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| what would a flattened midrange mean in adjusting the knobs on my amp? Turning the 'mid knob' to a low level? Doing that combined with avoiding the higher strings could make it sound really 'boom-y'. |
Start with the mid and shift controls straight up noon. Set bass and treble at about 10:30 or 11. If anything, you want to create a hump in the mids instead of the modern sounding scoop. So when you start adjusting the mid and shift, go right with shift and left with mid. If you don’t get a boom, turn your bass back up where you want it. If the sound is dull, try presence first before the high knob. If it sounds harsh, try rolling off the high end before adjusting mids.
Tonifying in this way can take all afternoon, and then still sound very disappointing at rehearsal, so prepare mentally for some sound design fatigue
Another thing to keep in mind is that those old recordings we listen to were done with relatively primitive micing technique*, and may not truly represent the sounds the musicians were trying to create.
*Masterfully so, I must add. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 11 Oct 2018 12:00 pm
|
|
| Oops looks like Dave Mudgett got here first. |
|
|
|
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 11 Oct 2018 1:05 pm
|
|
Believe me, I've hauled around my steel enough to have thought of how much easier it'd be with a lap steel... especially since many other musicians, not to mention audiences, don't pay attention enough to notice the difference in sound. But the radio show is too soon for me to get comfortable with a new instrument... and I'm still so enamored with pedal steel that I'd rather spend my free time on that than a different instrument. I play for fun instead of to be in a band.
Reading all these suggestions, if I'm understanding things correctly, short of altering my pickup or just getting a lap steel, what I should be doing is simply stripping down the sound to bare signal... and then adding a little distortion to replicate a primitive amp. As far as the EQ knobs on the amp, I should be emphasizing the mids.
I think what Fred said about mic-ing is really mindful... and something to think about. Do I just want to replicate how it sounds on the recording, or do I want to aim for the live sound.. or the tone the musicians would've used if they had access to modern electronics. I suppose that's where personal taste and discretion play in. |
|
|
|
