Why a D10?

Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

I posted this in a facebook pedal steel group, and thought I might as well put it here.

I've never owned a D10 pedal steel.
I've briefly played one, but have been satisfied with my MSA U12 I bought new in 1979.
I must admit to being a tad baffled - while nearly everything (and perhaps a bit more) is available on a U12, the D10 still seems to be the favored guitar.
Why is that?
Is it because the D10 was the standard for guys like Buddy Emmons?
Is it the admittedly impressive look of a D10?
After decades of playing C6 on a D10, I can understand the reluctance of someone switching to a U12, but how many use C6?
Many of us are getting older and the weight of a D10 becomes a factor, but it seems that many sell a D10 to get an SD10 because of weight AND because the back neck is little used or unknown. Yet, even younger guys order brand new D10s.
Do the younger folks play C6, or do they plan to?
I'm not knocking anyone, I'm just trying to understand why a Universal single neck pedal steel isn't more the norm. Just as pedals made a Quad unnecessary, it seems that with the mechanics in place, a single neck would've ultimately made a double neck superfluous. Perhaps one day it will.
Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.

Addendum: One D10 player on facebook said he does indeed use his back (C6) neck, and the reason he wouldn't go to a U12 is the loss of the 9th string pitch (D). Looking for more answers, especially from newer/younger players, but everyone is welcome to comment.
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1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amps w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Origin, Eventide, Pigtronix.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I have been playing for about 2 years, on an S10. My next guitar, if there ever is one, will probably be a 12-string E9 extended. I donâ€™t trust myself to be able to quickly learn a different tuning with different changes, and at 62 I am running out of daylight. My interest in playing some jazz notwithstanding, D10 and Uni are not on the radar. Unless somebody gives me one.

For younger players, and if I was younger, I would try all the different configurations.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

The reasons I don't use a U12 is that i have a lot of changes, and it would require me to hold my LKL in to get to the B6 side (Day player). That would make it hard to play all the pedals for me (short legs). I am not willing to move my E to D# change to a different lever.

I still have my D10 with 9k/9p. The last couple of years, I have not had occasion to use the C6 neck. During that time, I rarely even tuned the C neck. I was nrver that great on C6, so I don't completely miss it. Using an SD12 3x4 ext E9 is working fine for me (but more may be added). Not a lot of swing or jazz being played in country band out here.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I started out on a D10 for about 10 yrs. then switched over to Universal 12's and 14's and I've been back and forth. It takes a little getting used to, but it's all there.

My thought is a seasoned D10 player may not be happy with some of the adjustments that must be made to play the same things on a Universal 12.

If a player starts on a Universal, there wouldn't be any adjustments to be made. You would just learn to play what you have the same as you would on a particular setup on a single 10 or a double 10.

I once thought that the U12 would be the wave of the future, but now I don't think so. A lot of attitudes would have to change along with more exposure and coaxing, for lack of a better word at the moment, from prominent and highly visible players for this to happen.

I don't see that in the near future.

It's partly a holdover and perhaps a holdout by some players from early D10 years and a lack of understanding from others.

In my experience, all the stuff is there, but it's just in a different configuration and arrangement.

In my years, I have played both Universal 12/14 and D10. I could get on just fine with either one. I just need a little acclimation time one to the other.

The 9th string D is not available on the typical open tuned E9/B6 setup, but most players have their guitar equipped with a change that raises the B up to D. I don't find that a handicap, it's just a different way of getting to it. You can still do all the 7th, 4,6 & 9 stuff, but you have to hold a lever in to do it.

Modern pedal steels are so versatile in the ways of tunings and setups. Almost any arrangement can be done to suit a particular player's wants and needs.

Note that several players prefer the Bb6 tuning. Look at some players like the late Maurice Anderson, Junior Knight, David Wright, Christopher Woitach et al. Jazzers in particular have an affinity to this tuning too.

One thing that is a must for Universals in my opinion is that it has at least a 3/3 changer. With having all the pulls on a single changer, it fills up pretty quick.

Excel has gone way beyond that with multiple raise and lower capabilities on their Superb model.
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Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

Thanks, gents.
These posts are a good start to filling in my understanding.

Certainly, if one starts on D10, and learns both necks well, it may be too much of a stretch to go to a Universal tuning.
On the other hand, didn't the first generation pedal steel guitarists have to switch from multiple console necks to pedals?
I still can't fathom why someone would buy a D10 and let that back neck sit dormant. I know there's not a lot of call for swing/jazz on pedal steel, but many songs can be retooled for C6 richness.

Hopefully I can hear from one or more players that bought a D10, either with or without the intention of using C6, and learn their reasoning. (Just very curious, not flaming anyone.)
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amps w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Origin, Eventide, Pigtronix.

Jack Hanson · From: San Luis Valley, USA

I have a D-10, and two single-neck ten-string pedal steels. Plus a gaggle of 6-string steels, both electric and acoustic. I much prefer the ergonomics of the knee lever placement under the double-neck.

However, I also prefer a single-neck for lugging around from place to place.

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

U-12 in split cases for me.
Gives you most of the 6th changes.
I play a little B6th stuff and mostly E9th.
Universal 12 string takes a while to get used to but if someone is new at it why not.
Save your back a U-12 is heavy enough. ^_^
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Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Single 12 for me with full 12 string E9 (includes 9th string D and 2 extra lower strings added to the standard 10 string E9th tuning) and C6 tunings (standard 10 string C6 with two added chromatic strings on top) available at the flip of a lever.

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Excel%2012%20String%20Keyless/Excel%2012%20String%20Keyless.html

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Right on, Greg. I forgot about Excel. I need to keep that one on my short list.

Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

I've got a 2018 Excel just like Greg's, and not only is there truly no compromise, you even get 2 extra strings with each tuning.

And they work very well, flawlessly.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Th C6th was an early tuning, and most early players used that tuning as it was more capable than the E and A based tunings of the time. When the E tuning was refined with pedals, the old-guard chose to keep the C6th for it's different intervals and harmony capabilities. (After all, it was widely imbued in the western-swing music which was so popular throughout the '40s and '50s.) The idea of a multi-necked guitar had already been well accepted by the 1930's, and so there was no reason to drop that idea completely, even with the advent of pedals. In the '70s, a few pro players chose to to adapt to the many capabilities of a single tuning, but there was always something missing. That missing factor, I think, was the thought processes that go along with playing each individual tuning. Each has a certain character, and combining them blurs that uniqueness. I even recall Buddy saying in an interview that whenever two tunings are combined, you tend to lose a little of each. Though some see a single-tuning setup as sort of a "Swiss Army Knife", do-it-all solution, others see it as a complex compromise, a lot of them pro players. Face it, less than 10% of all players (pros included) play a universal tuning. And it's obvious that, even after almost 50 years of universal tuning concepts, things aren't going to change significantly anytime soon.

Play what you like, but remember that others have their own preferences, preferences based on decades of history and acclamation. After all, that's one of the basic premises of the instrument, the ability to customize it the way you want it to be. As for myself, I'm far more concerned with how well someone plays, as opposed to what type of guitar they choose to play. I've heard bad players on complex guitars and setups, and fabulous players on simple guitars and setups. So...for me, there's no general correlation as to what's best to use.

Just pick something and play it! Very Happy

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I started on an S10 then moved to a U12. After I started to understand the tuning I realized that a D10 was better for me. I had almost no interest in traditional styles at the time. The 2 necks with separate options is more simple and direct. They have different sounds and I can experiment with the options on one neck without screwing up the other. In my case when I look down at the E9 I see a series of whole steps at the heart of the tuning. And when I look down at the C6 neck I see a pentatonic scale. ( I use a middle D string)

On a primary level:

On the E neck the pedals tend to create quartal chords or diatonic harmonies. Super simple and direct.

On the C neck the pedals tend to create altered chords by moving outside of the key in half steps. Again very simple and direct.

I was sitting in Jimmy Crawfords basement going over my U12 tuning with him. I sat at his steel and a light turned on. My U12(Newman) was a compromise tuning attempting to have both standard C6 and E9 classic changes that sacrificed the elegance of the standard E9 and made the C6 stuff more complicated. A D10 was much more adaptable to my musical needs.
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Bob

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I have tried most every format - S10/SD-10 E9, D-10 E9/C6, 12/14-string Universal E9/B6, and 12-string Extended E9. At this point my main guitars are SD-10, a U12, and D10. Conclusions?

1. I have to have at least a 1-1/2 width or double-body for my long legs and arms;

2. For as much 6th playing as I've been doing, I'm OK with virtually any of them, but tend to favor universal over extended E9, and:

- I set up a universal to favor E9 because I play that approach more, but the extra strings and changes for a basic but full B6 are useful;

- I'm at the point where I do notice the lack of the dedicated E9 D string on universal, but can function without it;

3. As I'm starting to work more on 6th playing, I can appreciate Bob H.'s point about having two separate approaches on the same guitar that don't mess with each other. For universal, there are compromises - setup and tuning - that one typically needs to make for more than relatively basic E9/B6 setups. I'm OK making those compromises now, but as I veer more to 6th, I think I'm gonna want to do that on a D10.

But I also agree with Donny - just play whatever works for you. But I do think there are advantages to D10. I've actually thought about a D12/10 with a 12-string Extended E9 on front and C6 on back. But I'll probably never do it unless the right one just presents itself to me.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

My analogy has always been, S12U is like a nice Corvette, and D10 is like a nice Ford F250 Smile

If you need to pull stumps, grab a D10.
If you want to blaze around town, grab an S12U.

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

That's funny! I play a U-12 and I drive a Corvette.
Cool analysis.

Rick Barnhart · From: Arizona, USA

While I got a kick out of Peteâ€™s analogy, I gotta say, itâ€™s not the machine...itâ€™s the operator.
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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Gotta agree with you Rick. I had also forgotten about Greg's Excel with the semi-crossover. That has got to be a win, win situation. It's hard to make any arguments against that setup.

Maybe that's the future?

IMO, everything is a compromise on pedal steels. It's impossible to have everything everywhere. Players decide what's the most important to them and what's maybe not so much. That probably dictates what goes where.

I have to say also that not everybody hears or wants the traditional stuff. You should have your guitar set up so that it allows you to play your way.

Concerning the use of C6 or B6 etc. in recordings etc., it's probably not much in vogue presently, but many players want it for their own enjoyment. If you go to many shows, lots of people use this neck/tuning to really shine for some things that would be a stretch for a single E9 tuning. Personally, a single tuned guitar such as that holds no interest for me. I consider them only "half" a guitar for my use...all due respect.

Daniel McKee · From: Corinth Mississippi

I have a D-10 but honestly spend more time with a 6 string lap steel tuned to C6th. I guess some players who are good with both tunings might use a double neck more but many players focus more on just one tuning and for some a universal covers everything. I plan on going the universal route in the near future.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

At one point, it was claimed that male double-neck players attracted more females ...

Razz

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Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

So here's my answer: I tried a U-12 before going to a D-10. I like what both tunings provide.

I like the idea of the "one big tuning"... but that did not work for me. For me to go from A+B pedals all the way over to pedal 8 for the boo-wah, or even pedal 6 or 7, my chances of hitting the correct pedal were just too low.

I've only been playing 7 years, with some pretty big breaks in the middle of that, and I am over 60 - so I figure I've got to find what works for me and not fight the steel.

I find I can effectively play 4 pedals. If I go to 5 - again, I either get too many misses (or catch two pedals rather than one). So, the "one big tuning" idea was out for me - I could lock the E-Eb lever and play B6 with my feet over the appropriate pedals for that, or keep my feet over the E9 pedals and play that tuning.

So then I began thinking where I would actually want the knee levers for each tuning - but with Uni, sometimes where you want a B6 change on a lever is also where you want a different change for E9, and they don't necessarily work together! So, my solution was to switch to a D10.

My setup is 8x8, and each neck has 4 pedals, and 5 knees (since the RK levers operate on both necks). I have the standard pedal 5 from the C6 neck on my LKR - so I have the usual 5 pedals, but with only 4 actually on the pedals. On C6 I have a Franklin pedal at 0. I play a Millennium, so the weight is less than most Unis. The rodding, since it is divided between two necks, is much easier to deal with than that of a loaded Uni. And very few Uni's have all the changes I have available. If you don't want or need them, fine. I like my setup, and it works for me.

To me, one of the cool things about pedal steel is the individuality the instrument allows, not only in how we play it, but even as to the exact mechanics and arrangement of notes (Zane King's tuning vs. Reese Anderson's vs. Jeff Newman's - all playing single-neck 12s). You can go basic like Lloyd does, or load it up, like Paul. It just depends on what you want to play.
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Drew Pierce · From: Arkansas, USA

There was a time in the 1970s when a lot of top players were experimenting with U12 and 14 and it looked like that was a going to be the new way to go. Buddy Emmons, John Hughey, Hal Rugg and Herby Wallace come to mind off the top of my head and there were many more. But by the end of the decade, those guys had all gone back to D10s and pretty much stayed with them for the rest of their careers.
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Drew Pierce
Emmons D10 Fatback, S10 bolt-on, Zum D10, Evans RE500, Hilton volume and delay pedals.

Kevin Fix · From: Michigan, USA

Knee lever locations and tone.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

don't forget availability.

In addition, many players start on a single neck student guitar, the natural progression is to move to a more configured single neck then on to a double neck. At this point they do not need to relearn the E9th, they (we) are just adding the C6 to what we already know and are comfortable with.

I suspect that if there were student U12's at comparable prices , things may be different.

If a player spends 2 years studying the E9th and getting familiar with it, I doubt they would move to a U12 and begin the journey all over again.

I wouldn't. I may ADD a U12 to my arsenal , but maybe not.

U12's are great guitars, but so are S10's and D10's ! By saying a U12 has it all,which it probably does, my response back would be, so does the D10 !

Personally I can't remember the last time I played a swing style with fat chords during Farewell Party ! Very Happy

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Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

Thanks very much, y'all!
I'm very glad to hear all the points of view concerning a D10 vs a Universal.
Thanks also for the civility; personal tastes can give rise to anger, and that is not at all what I would want to see.

A few personal notes:
Each pedal steel I've bought new came with the 4 and 8 string lowers (E to D#) on the RKL.
That works much better for a U12 than having it on the left knee, which makes sense for a straight up E9 (S, SD, or D neck).
I actually prefer not using a lock on the E lowers, as there are some new possibilities when alternating (as Joe Wright has shown).
That Excel set up is quite fascinating; could be the ultimate for a U12.
Finally, I agree: everything on pedal steel, including tuning, is a compromise. No perfect solution or one-size-fits-all. I feel that's both the beauty and at least a potential drawback for the instrument.

Others are still welcome to chime in here.
No judging, just open discussion of something that has baffled me for a while.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amps w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Origin, Eventide, Pigtronix.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

My basic premise for using an S12U is, everything I need to play my gigs exists on a single wide body S12U.
So that is what I go with.
All the standard E9th and C6th changes that I need are on there.
My main personal issue with a Double neck is, they are too heavy and too big/awkward to be carrying down the street and into my gig. I don't use a case unless I am flying, but I definitely do not want to lift a D10 out of a case.
Also, I hate changing strings. One neck is too much already!
Smile

Anyone who knows me knows, if Pete thought he needed a D10, Pete would have a D10.

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