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Topic: Please explain the difference between 2/4 & 4/4; 3/4 & 6/8 |
Pete Nicholls
From: Macon, Georgia, USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2018 4:46 pm
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Please explain the difference between 2/4 and 4/4, and 3/4 and 6/8 other than the number of beats per measure. Can you hear the differences? _________________ Justice The Judge SD-10, 2007
Justice Pro Lite SD-10, 2011
Quilter Steelaire
Quilter Labs Tone Block 202 Head
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Pete Bailey
From: Seattle, WA
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Posted 7 Oct 2018 5:35 pm
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The only difference to be found between those alternate time signatures is on the written page, in notation.
Although some musical styles are "obviously" felt to be in 6/8 as opposed to 3/4 for instance, they could be notated either way, so as far as hearing the signatures goes, it's all a matter of interpretation. |
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Pete Nicholls
From: Macon, Georgia, USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2018 4:33 am
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Thanks, that makes me feel a little better! _________________ Justice The Judge SD-10, 2007
Justice Pro Lite SD-10, 2011
Quilter Steelaire
Quilter Labs Tone Block 202 Head
Roland Cube 80-XL
American Stratocaster - Yamaha Bass Guitar
1 Fender Telecaster Nashville Edition
Ham Call: N4BHB |
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Chris Walke
From: St Charles, IL
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Posted 8 Oct 2018 5:34 am
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The difference between 2/4 & 4/4 has always eluded me except, as stated, on paper.
3/4 & 6/8....I think that's more feel - I think of how a drummer would play.
3/4: KICK-snare-snare, KICK-snare-snare
6/8: KICK-hat-hat, SNARE-hat-hat
Maybe that's wrong or overly simplified, but I notice in the songs that have that difference in feel, I chart out the measures accordingly. |
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Jim Cohen
From: Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 8 Oct 2018 5:47 am
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My understanding, mostly from choral music, is that 2/4 and 4/4 differ in the feel of the pulse. A piece that's written in 2/4 would feel choppy and "vertical", and tend to plod along, if people are thinking and counting in 4/4. _________________ www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Bill Fisher
From: Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2018 8:19 am Count
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Sure. Think of it this way. The downbeat accent is 1, so you have ONE-two, ONE-two. In 4/4 it's ONE-two-three-four, ONE-two-three-four.
Bill |
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Joachim Kettner
From: Germany
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Posted 8 Oct 2018 9:45 am
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I think the 6/8 beat is often called a Jazz Waltz. _________________ Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube. |
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Dave Mudgett
From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 8 Oct 2018 10:35 am
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Yeah, technically, 2/4 & 4/4, and 3/4 & 6/8, can be considered isomorphic (i.e., mathematically equivalent except for labeling) pairs.
But I would definitely write a polka/2-step in 2/4 and a typical swing/shuffle in 4/4 and it has to do with the feel and where the accents are placed, as Bill states. Similarly with 3/4 and 6/8, with a straight waltz having accents on 1 in 3/4 while writing something with 6 beats to the bar and strongest accent on 1 to be in 6/8, as Chris states. Most musicians I know typically distinguish between them with this type of semantics. But I guess there would be nothing technically "wrong" with writing in the other time signature as long as one denotes the accents appropriately.
A lot of gospel and soul music has that "6/8 feel", it's not just a jazz thing. |
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Pete Bailey
From: Seattle, WA
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Posted 8 Oct 2018 10:48 am
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Ha, yeah that's what I mean Dave. Some music obviously belongs in one time sig or the other, but they could be written either way, so picking the "correct" time sig by ear is almost always a matter of interpretation.
Generally speaking, arrangers choose the time sig that will best represent the music clearly on the written page. Sometimes it's dead obvious. Often it can go either way, and you'll frequently see the same song notated in 3/4, 6/8 or even 9/8 if it's particularly swingy and somebody felt pedantic about notating it that way. |
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Chris Sattler
From: Hunter Valley, Australia
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Doug Palmer
From: Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2018 7:56 am music times
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2/4 and 4/4, 3/4 and 6/8 could be written either way. The goal is to use the one that is easiest to read. _________________ Emmons D-10, ST-10,LD-10 III, NV-112,Fender Deluxe Reverb. Authorized wholesale dealer musicorp.com! |
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Pete Nicholls
From: Macon, Georgia, USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2018 11:45 am
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Chris Walke wrote: |
The difference between 2/4 & 4/4 has always eluded me except, as stated, on paper.
3/4 & 6/8....I think that's more feel - I think of how a drummer would play.
3/4: KICK-snare-snare, KICK-snare-snare
6/8: KICK-hat-hat, SNARE-hat-hat
Maybe that's wrong or overly simplified, but I notice in the songs that have that difference in feel, I chart out the measures accordingly. |
So then a square dance would be best as 2/4? Some really interesting replies in this thread, thanks to all that replied. _________________ Justice The Judge SD-10, 2007
Justice Pro Lite SD-10, 2011
Quilter Steelaire
Quilter Labs Tone Block 202 Head
Roland Cube 80-XL
American Stratocaster - Yamaha Bass Guitar
1 Fender Telecaster Nashville Edition
Ham Call: N4BHB |
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Chris Sattler
From: Hunter Valley, Australia
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Posted 11 Oct 2018 4:40 pm
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Irish jigs and reels are 6/8 quite a lot. Think along those lines and it is a starting place to distinguish between 3/4. Having said that, it is not always that easy. Take Keith Urban's "Blue aint your colour". I would have thought 3/4 but it is in fact 6/8.
It is probably not exactly correct but I tend to think of how many words will be forced into one bar if the times signature is 3/4 rather than 6/8, or 4/4 and cut common. |
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Pete Bailey
From: Seattle, WA
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Posted 12 Oct 2018 9:47 am
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Chris Sattler wrote: |
It is probably not exactly correct but I tend to think of how many words will be forced into one bar if the times signature is 3/4 rather than 6/8, or 4/4 and cut common. |
Believe it or not, Chris, that consideration is often the exact deciding factor when I am on the fence about a time sig for a chart. |
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Ford Cole
From: Texas
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Posted 12 Oct 2018 2:27 pm
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We're talking time signature and that involves beats per measure, ie. 4/4 would have 4 beats per bar line, ect. Tunes that have words/lyrics affect the time signature of the piece and how the words flow to communicate. Also, how are dancers gonna respond to the beat, tempo, mood of the song and so on. Sure hope I've not not missed the boat on this stuff.. |
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Rick Barnhart
From: Arizona, USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2018 2:39 pm
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Just sing Waltz across Texas (3/4), then Crazy Arms (4/4) See how the beats fall in place. For now don’t bother with Pink Floyd’s “Money†or the jazz standard “Take Five†those tunes are in 5/4 time
When I was a kid, my parents would simply waltz right in my room, when I was clearly listening to rock & roll. _________________ Clinesmith consoles D-8/6 5 pedal, D-8 3 pedal & A25 Frypan, Pettingill Teardrop, & P8 Deluxe. |
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John Alexander
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Posted 12 Oct 2018 10:30 pm
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The "compound" meters (6/8, 9/8 and 12/8 ) are typically used to notate music where the basic beat is 2/4, 3/4 or 4/4 but each beat is consistently divided into three instead of two.
For example, in the familiar tune Sleepwalk - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBRCvVpknvg - the chord changes lay out in 4/4 time in a conventional format of 32 measures broken down into four groups of 8 measures each, in AABA form. That is what you hear if you listen to the bass. However, the rhythm guitar consistently divides each beat into three even pulses. These could be written as triplets on every beat of each 4/4 measure, or more conveniently the whole song might be notated in 12/8 instead of 4/4, meaning that you would have 4 beats in each measure, but each beat is divided into three eighth notes instead of two. That would eliminate the use of triplet notation for the rhythm guitar part, and might simplify the notation of the melody as well, since most of the melody notes would coincide with the 12/8 rhythm guitar pulses, although there are some places where the steel player plays four even notes in the time of three guitar pulses, which would have to be notated as quadruplets against the ongoing triple pulses of the rhythm guitar. (This is not an argument for notating Sleepwalk in 12/8 vs. 4/4, but is just given as an example to show how compound time works.)
Typically compound meters would be counted in accordance with the underlying beats that are being divided into three. In other words, 6/8 would be counted 1-2, 1-2 etc. like a march (2/4), 9/8 would be counted 1-2-3, 1-2-3 like a waltz (3/4), and 12/8 would be counted 1-2-3-4 like common time (4/4).
So although 6/8 looks on the surface like it is equivalent to 3/4, it is more conventionally used to notate something with a two-beat feel, like 2/4. If you look at the 6/8 drum beat posted above by Chris Walke, you can see that the bass drum and snare hits express a two beat pattern: Bass, Snare, Bass, Snare etc. If instead you try think of that drum pattern as two measures of a waltz, you have a snare hit on the downbeat of every second measure, which would be unusual in a waltz.
I hope this helps. |
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John Alexander
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Posted 12 Oct 2018 10:54 pm
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Chris Sattler wrote: |
I struggle with cut common and 4/4 . . . . |
I could never understand what "cut time" (2/2 instead of 4/4) was all about until I played sax in high school band, with the band director conducting. What was different in cut time was what the conductor was doing - articulating two half note beats per measure rather than four quarter note beats - meaning that the conductor only had to wave his baton half as fast for a tune that looked on paper and sounded in every other respect as if it were written in 4/4. Cut time made it easier for the conductor to conduct and easier for the musicians to follow the conductor when the tempo was very fast, which is when it was used. |
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Rick Barnhart
From: Arizona, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2018 8:45 pm
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I ran across this today...makes sense. 😂
_________________ Clinesmith consoles D-8/6 5 pedal, D-8 3 pedal & A25 Frypan, Pettingill Teardrop, & P8 Deluxe. |
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Pete Nicholls
From: Macon, Georgia, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2018 6:31 am
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John Alexander wrote: |
For example, in the familiar tune Sleepwalk -
I hope this helps. |
Thanks John for that explanation and example, very helpful.
Thanks for all responses. _________________ Justice The Judge SD-10, 2007
Justice Pro Lite SD-10, 2011
Quilter Steelaire
Quilter Labs Tone Block 202 Head
Roland Cube 80-XL
American Stratocaster - Yamaha Bass Guitar
1 Fender Telecaster Nashville Edition
Ham Call: N4BHB |
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Skip Edwards
From: LA,CA
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Posted 5 Nov 2018 7:11 am
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Very good, Rick. That explains everything perfectly. Here's one to go along with it...
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Fred Treece
From: California, USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2018 10:27 pm
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Rick and Skip are obviously music PhD’s.
Just try playing Pineapple-Pineapple while you’re counting in Strawberry, you’ll see the difference.
Rick’s chart makes it clear that you can only get one Pop Tart per measure of Pizza, but you can get two per measure of Watermelon, even if the Pop Tarts are at equal BPM in both recipes. Just a matter of how you want the song to taste. |
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Pete Burak
From: Portland, OR USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 8:19 pm
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That food chart would make an excellent right-hand thumb/index thumb/ring thumb/index/ring etc, single-string string picking exersize.
Maybe have a metronome going then pick all those patterns. |
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Duane Reese
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Posted 16 Nov 2018 8:56 am
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A long time ago, I asked one of my rock 'n roll friends how time signatures worked – like what did 4/4 mean, as an example – and here was his answer...
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...Uh...four beats per measure...four measures per bar. |
Well I can laugh about that now but back in those days, everyone in the circles I ran in was too embarrassed to admit how musically illiterate we were, and that leads to guys giving answers like that one, in order to slip under the radar as someone who can't do what a 4th grader can in terms of understanding the language. Kinda sad in hindsight. It's sad because there are a couple of books – pretty thin, easy books – that tell you everything there is to know...and they're cheap.
Speaking of bad answers by wannabes who don't want to be exposed as non-experts...back in the '90s, I asked my brother's know-it-all, self-proclaimed computer hacker friend what DAC meant on a CD player – like where it would say "1-bit DAC"...
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...Uh...well just means...you know, data-analyzing cluster...duh! |
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