| Author |
Topic: extended C6 or Uni B6 or XXX? |
Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
|
Posted 16 Sep 2018 4:32 pm |
|
I have an underutilized E9/B6 single body uni (Emmons PP) with very heavy action..
Frankly it sounds in its natural place playing saxophone-ish leads from a straight B6 tuning just with the bar... No pedals needed but that would be really limiting and mostly a studio application. I do have some casual jazz stuff in my broader music life right now.. Moreso than E9 in terms of my current interest area.
I am thinking about investing in having it setup as a extended C6 or B6 based Uni. (Eg B6/E9 rather than E9/B6)
I really have no idea as to the utility of extended C6..havent studied it much.. Anything lower than the big fat C is a waste I think as I very rarely even use that..but a high G and D would be useful.
Ideally 5 knee levers and up to 7 pedals as I do not know how I would function without 5x5 on the C6 neck of my D10.
Ideas, advice? |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 17 Sep 2018 4:35 am
|
|
Larry Bell has a nice breakdown on tunings and is also a PP E9/B6 guy.
Might be worth a read:
http://www.larrybell.org/id5.htm
I have a Uni PP and the main thing I didn't like is that my A-pedal C# is a tuned a little flat of my P7-C#.
This means the string-5 A-pedal C# would never make that glorious "Body Contact" when depressed.
I took P7 off, and just use the A-pedal as a P7 substitute.
fwiw, imho/ime, The Uni tuning basically overloads the PP mechanism, from a "pedal-action" standpoint (pedals and levers get stiffer as you add more changes). |
|
|
|
Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
|
Posted 17 Sep 2018 4:58 am
|
|
Tom - It looks like you want to do something similar to what the Bb6 players do.
For what it's worth, here is how I set up my Emmons universal long ago.
https://b0b.com/tunings/baucum.htm
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 17 Sep 2018 7:51 am
|
|
Also, The first 3 strings on my Uni's are:
1-D#
2-G#
3-F#
This puts you in a more logical string order for 6th style playing, and strings 2-5 are in the same order as strings 6-9.
As a lifelong S12U player, this actually makes more sense to me from an E9th standpoint, also. |
|
|
|
Tom Campbell
From:
Houston, Texas, USA
|
Posted 17 Sep 2018 9:42 am
|
|
Pette...I have that same that string order on my 12 string Uni and my 10 string Uni. I play more B6 than E9...that F# must in that linier order.
Also discovered if I raise that F# to a G with my RKR lever I can get the same "lick's" pattern as the top two strings of an E9 tuning...ie. E to G (minor) or E to G# (Major) intervals. |
|
|
|
Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
|
Posted 17 Sep 2018 10:45 am
|
|
| Pete Burak wrote: |
Larry Bell has a nice breakdown on tunings and is also a PP E9/B6 guy.
Might be worth a read:
http://www.larrybell.org/id5.htm
.
.
.
The Uni tuning basically overloads the PP mechanism, from a "pedal-action" standpoint (pedals and levers get stiffer as you add more changes). |
Hi Pete, yes I have also been playing an MSA S12U E9/B6 for 20 years... Recall my 5x5 RiSC coped? Lol.
Yes the stiff action is what kills my interest in playing the PP uni... While I probably need the exercise and muscle strength, I prefer the gym..
If this was a 10 string PP I wpuld know exactly what to do with it.. It would get a duplication of my D10 C6 coped. But it has 12 strings.
CFACEGACEGDF. BOTTOM TO TOP? |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 17 Sep 2018 11:02 am
|
|
| Maybe just play it as a 10-string for now then? |
|
|
|
Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
|
Posted 17 Sep 2018 5:38 pm
|
|
You are probably aware of the level of patience and expertise required to setup a PP...
If I do this, it will cost some $ and require a couple plane flights. So I am soliciting how best to aporoach it as a permanent 12 string instrument.
The knee levers available in a full C6 coped are very important to me.
Going to look into this Bb6 coped thing Lee talks about. |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 17 Sep 2018 8:58 pm
|
|
Tom, I was thinking maybe just start backing off lock-collars until it plays like butter? 
No major surgury.
On the other hand... there are always a few guys who want to buy a S12U PP.
Maybe sell yours?
I just bought an 80's MCI S12U, and it is a breeze to work on.
I think you could find a used S12U that is much easier to experiment with than a Push Pull.
If you have gone D10 maybe just stay in the 10 string world?
There are some S10 C6th steels out there, too. |
|
|
|
Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
|
Posted 18 Sep 2018 8:42 am
|
|
I can (and often DO) play my two Emmons push-pull U-12 guitars barefoot. A number of things (mostly shock springs and pedal return springs) can contribute to heavy action on a push-pull. A little shock spring is fine to even out pulls, but things can get stiff. Same goes for the spring that returns the pedal (front apron). I just minimized those and it plays like butter. It's a very simple machine. If adjusted properly, it is as solid as a rock. Tuning is also stable . . . and then there's that S O U N D and its presence in a room.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
|
|
|
Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
|
Posted 18 Sep 2018 9:11 am
|
|
I have a single 12 pp universal, 7x5, set up by Bobby Bowman.
It plays as easy as any all pull I`ve played...
_________________
Olli Haavisto
Finland |
|
|
|
Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
|
Posted 18 Sep 2018 7:24 pm
|
|
Pete, I have to say that nothing is as cool as playing bar leads on this guitar.. The tone breathes and is totally liquid and organic from top to bottom... A very fine example.
I really want to find a way to make it work for me. I know I will bond with it when it is right.
Larry, thanks for your input. Socks=perfect. I have read that an SD12 has easier action than a S12 simple due to distance between changer and finger offers better leverage on that higher deck.
Olie, since yours is single unit width, anyway you can send me a rodding diagram that covers off leverage and spring cushions and any gear downs? ... also string set gauge info? If too much work I understand. |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 19 Sep 2018 4:50 am
|
|
| Tom Gorr wrote: |
| Pete, I have to say that nothing is as cool as playing bar leads on this guitar... |
I hear ya! (I took delivery of mine in Sept '82 and am looking at it right now 'Love 'em).
Can you post or list the pedal/lever copedant so we can see how it is set up now?
Quick story, I played my single-body Emmons Push Pull S12U Jeff Newman E9/B6 7x4 for 10 years, on the average of 5 nights a week, 5-45min sets a night, before I ever went to a Steel Convention.
I went right over to Jeff Newman, who I spent a week with in '82, and said, Hey Jeff I bought an Emmons Push Pull S12U right after your class in '82.
The very first thing he said was, "I bet the pedals are stiff!". He had tried one, too.
I had no idea that there was any other pedal action, because I had no other Steel to play or try during that entire timeframe.
I once ran into a guy with an Emmons that had welded pedal extansions on each wide-pedal (about 2-inches longer).
It wasn't pretty, but that extra length really made the pedal action better by changing the fulcrom point. |
|
|
|
