Knee lever question for E9th players

Mark McCornack · From: California, USA

Hey All,
I have a old Pro-I and it is currently set up 3x4. My Right knee levers are set up so pushing Left lowers the E strings to Eb and pushing Right raises the E strings to an F.
Having these two on the same knee makes a lot of sense to me but I see that several folks out there like to put these on seperate knees.
My question (or perhaps observation) is this. As one would never Raise the E 1/2 step while sinultaneously Lowering the Eâ€™s a half step, why would one ever NOT elect to put these on the same knee. All your other appendages are free to flail around at will with various pedal/lever/bar/string combinations, but you never are going to raise and lower the Eâ€™s as I described simultaneously. Make sense?
Iâ€™m curious to here input from someone that thinks this is a bad idea, and if so, why. Not trying to stir up a hornets nest, just seeking guidance and input from other players (particularly from those that have these E changes on seperate knees.
Regards,
Mark
Razz

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I have no interest in "good idea" / "bad idea" but I have a solid reason why I like separate knees a lot. In the A Pedal + F Lever inversion I can make a smooth whole step raise or lower on 4 & 8 with no break to change levers. This adds one more level of versatility to this inversion position. It works for me. Very well.

Mark McCornack · From: California, USA

Hi Jon, I think I see what you are saying. Assuming open strings (no bar), you are glissing from a C# sus2 to a C# major, and you ARE momentaraly engaging both E levers (raise and lower) simultaneously.. Is this correct?
Mark

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Yes Mark, you have it right. I agree with Jon entirely. I have the E lowers on RKR (because I play a uni) and the raises on LKR as I use the Day setup. I use the ability to drop the 3rd in the A/F position a lot.

On the other hand there are players who claim to conjure that on the same knee!
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

there is no right or wrong, it's according to personal taste . I asked Buddy about this many years back and his was response was something like this,

It's not bad to place the E's on different knees ( left and right ) but by doing that you may eliminate the opportunity to place another pull that you like to use. He also refereed to body energy, using ONE leg rather than two , put as much on one leg (knee) as possible, which limits body movement.

Keeping the E's on one knee keeps the other knee open for a pull that may fit with BOTH E levers. Buddy had both E's on the left knee, well at least that day he did.

The smooth transition that Jon talks about is very nice. If that transition is of primary importance to the player then yes, by all means, put the E's on opposite knees.

It's personal, not a rule.

the whole dang instrument is personal ! Very Happy

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Dan Behringer · From: Jerseyville, Illinois

I lower my Eâ€™s on the RkL lever, but I have to admit it does make more sense to me to put both E knee levers on the same side. My first steel was set up this way and Iâ€™m just too stubborn to learn to play the other way. LoL! Itâ€™s just that I have too many other things to spend my time learning on this contraption.

If you're already learning to play with both E knee levers on the left side, I say you should stick with it.

Brian Hollands · From: Geneva, FL USA

I asked the same question a while back and the resulting thread was interesting with links to even more interesting threads including Paul Franklin and Buddy Emmons going back and forth on the merits of same vs. separate placement
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=329046&highlight=
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

If you lower 2 a whole tone (and I submit you should; there's lots of music there), and you lower 6 a whole tone/raise 6 a whole tone (and I submit you should;there's a lot of music there, too), then your Es should be on the same knee, because BOTH of these levers work nicely with the E lowers (and the 2nd string drop works with the E raises).
So they don't belong together for their sake, but because by separating them, you lose some other combinations.
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Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I believe the simple short answer is, we only have TWO physical legs with one knee on each leg. If we split for example the E's to both legs, we may miss an opportunity to add another change that we may like to use with one leg or the other.

Having both E's on one leg allows for something else to happen with that other leg (knee) that ain't doin' nuthin !

It's not right or wrong, it's preference.

For example I killed the 5 string drop on the V lever, I changed it to drop 6 so I could still have raise 7 on RKL. I never bonded with drop 5, but I have bonded with drop 6 and raise 7. Others will probably respond by telling me what I am missing without drop 5. My response is I want drop 6 and raise 7. I don't care what I am losing, I care what I am gaining. Theres more than one way to skin a cat . I read that somewhere.

make your own way !
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Mark McCornack · From: California, USA

Thanks for this input! After reading these posts (and the entertaining banter referenced herein between Mr. Emmons and Mr. Franklin on this subject back in 2004), I can see where the camps are and why. In my setup, if I want to do a slow glissando in the AF inversion from sus2 to the major chord, there is indeed a a momentary point in transition where it is â€œhesitatingâ€ at the minor 3rd (between lever engagements).
Unless I can figure a way to make my right knee temporaraly â€œfat on demandâ€ there is a little bump there.
This did prompt me though to take some of the dead space play out between these two lever engagements through mechanical lever adjustment and this helps greatly in smoothing out the full step glissando.
No matter what, playing the PSG is just like wrestling an alligator, and something bound to bite you. I think I â€˜ll stick with my common knee arrangement and work on that glis with technique improvement. Buddy Emmons claimed to have been able to do this with a single knee, but then again, he was Buddy Emmons Wink

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I have them on separate knees but, in Buddy's defense, I see how it's possible to angle your left leg to get the same effect.
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

But if you drop 6/raise 7, then you have two positions (open and AB) to make that move seamlessly.
But every time you arrange/rearrange your copedent, you will necessarily make tradeoffs and compromises. The trick is to figure out which combinations and/or sequences you rarely use, and make the ones you don't use the ones you can't.
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

And remember the redundancy thing. That move between the two levers is essentially recreating the sound achieved in the more familiar position, moving the A pedal with the B down. As I said, it's nice to find all possibilities in all sorts of positions but if I were not able to get the smooth lever transition I'd probably just shrug.

Mark McCornack · From: California, USA

Yes, and there is that redundancy thing. This change can be achieved 4 frets up with the B pedal down and glissing the A pedal, but if your not there, or have other passing notes you want that are unavalable in that bar position, you are out of luck.

Jon, your original point was well taken and well understood, and I thank you for that. The fact is, with the single knee I canâ€™t get the perfectly smooth transition as you describe. I did find however that after adjusting my two right knee levers to minimize the slop between engagements, the possibility of a smoother 1 step transition is GREATLY IMPROVED! I mean by A LOT!
It canâ€™t be so close that a fully disenaged position isnâ€™t possible or comfortable (no lever), but getting the slop out of the dead space really, really helps! Enough so, that I think I can live with it. Thanks again. Cool

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

If you're not at AB, but can be at open, you can either hit the 1st string with that modern 1st and 2nd string raise and let it go, or you can lower 6 a whole tone or hit the whole tone raise of 7 then release it (if you have either of these.
Or, at open, you can pull 1 behind the bar then release it
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Mark McCornack · From: California, USA

Yes, and there is that redundancy thing. This change can be achieved 4 frets up with the B pedal down and glissing the A pedal, but if your not there, or have other passing notes you want that are unavalable in that bar position, you are out of luck.

Jon, your original point was well taken and well understood, and I thank you for that. The fact is, with the single knee I canâ€™t get the perfectly smooth transition as you describe. I did find however that after adjusting my two right knee levers to minimize the slop between engagements, the possibility of a smoother 1 step transition is GREATLY IMPROVED! I mean by A LOT!
It canâ€™t be so close that a fully disenaged position isnâ€™t possible or comfortable (no lever), but getting the slop out of the dead space really, really helps! Enough so, that I think I can live with it. Thanks again. Cool

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

To me it is all about customization. I have only four actual change-levers on my PSGs, but they go a long wayâ€¦

As I have the E raise/lower on left knee, I soon found that I had to put those levers as close together as possible to get seamless enough transition for my taste. Having them so close that I can literally feel both levers most of the time â€“ depends on how far forward I move that knee, hasn't caused any problems over the years. Neither has having five pedals under that foot.

That I have also rigged my favorite PSG so I can raise or lower E strings a full note by raising that knee a little to move hinged half-note stoppers out of the way, makes for even longer seamless sweeps "on demand".

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

[quote="Donny Hinson"]

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The change is not redundant. Musically, yes, but it has a different timbre because it's on different strings. It's good to have 3 different ways to play a lick. Then you can pick the one that works best in the context of where your bar is at the moment, so that the timbre doesn't change suddenly.

I know players who don't even use the A+F position because they can get the same chord with A+B or with no pedals. They don't realize how much they've limited their playing options. They're in a rut.

The full step change on the E string using both levers is an essential part of my E9th playing. I even split the C6th levers to separate knees so I can use it there, too. (C to B on RKL and C to C# on LKL)
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