| Author |
Topic: What key? |
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 5 Jul 2018 10:52 am |
|
Okay .. the chords are ....
VERSE:
C#, B, A, G#
C#, B, A, G#, G#m, F#
CHORUS
C#, Fm, F#, G#
What key signature would you use? E? C#?
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
|
|
|
Rich Sullivan
From:
Nelson, NH 03457
|
Posted 5 Jul 2018 11:09 am
|
|
Andy,
That's a tough call. I would probably listen to the melody and see what feels like a gravitational home. Only about half of the chords are in any key you might choose. I could be convinced of C#, F#, or G#, but not E. Another trick that seems to make it easier for me to at least contemplate, is to move it into an easier key to evaluate. If the song is transposed up a half step, the chords are D, C, Bb, A, Am, G, and Gbm. And I would either choose D, G, or A possibly (which yields the C#, F# or G# in the original key.)
Rich |
|
|
|
Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
|
Posted 5 Jul 2018 2:08 pm
|
|
| I would love to hear a recording of the song. |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 6 Jul 2018 3:07 am
|
|
Rich, I had a brain cramp about the key of E! I was notating it in C# though a few chords are out of the key. I agree you could argue for Ab.
Lee, here's the tune ... beautiful song by Brian Wilson. Including it in a new book of Surf arrangements. It makes a killer lap steel tune.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi0qPIkQuLY
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 6 Jul 2018 8:12 am
|
|
It's in C#, no question, but because not all the C# chords are major (some are just an open fifth which sound like a minor by contrast), if I were notating it I would do so in just four sharps as if it were C#m, thus avoiding a load of naturals for the A and B chords and instead just having the occasional E# or B# for the C# and G# chords.
(In the brass band world which is all flat keys, it's equally legitimate to do the opposite and write minor music with the major key signature and add flats as necessary. Three flats are nothing but six are scary! Same music....)
The chord you've called Fm should properly be called E#m - it's the iii chord.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 6 Jul 2018 8:55 am
|
|
Thank you Ian, very helpful. On checking, you are correct ... E#m. You don't see that one every day.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
|
|
|
David Sheads
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 6 Jul 2018 10:35 am
|
|
alternatively:
Db, Cb, Bbb, Ab
Db, Cb, Bbb, Ab, Abm, Gb
CHORUS
Db, Fm, Gb, Ab
having grown up a pianist, i'd feel more comfortable reading music in Db, which is also to say, i don't ever recall seeing a song actually written in C# major (seven sharps) or Cb major (seven flats), when you could more easily go with Db major (five flats) or B major (five sharps).
the bVI major chord leading to the V is a common sound in flamenco (this particular walk-down (I, bVII, bVI, V) in the verse sped up and played on classical guitar would sound like backup for a flamenco tune). in this case, since the 6th scale degree is already a flat note (Bb major), a flatted major six chord will land you into double-flat territory (Bbb major).
do you have to stay in the original key? if at all possible, just put it in an easier key.
Last edited by David Sheads on 6 Jul 2018 11:22 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
David Sheads
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 6 Jul 2018 10:51 am
|
|
if you can pick any key, these could be the template:
Verse:
I, bVII, bVI, V
I, bVII, bVI, V, v, IV
Chorus:
I, iii, IV, V
i also echo Rich's comment earlier - listen to the melody to figure out what the key signature of the melody line should be. i haven't taken a good listen to the song to say anything definitive. i think you've chanced into a great real-world example of a situation where to notate things properly in the original key (according to theory) you'd need to get into either double-flat or double-sharp territory. this would be a good one to share with theory teachers! |
|
|
|
Joachim Kettner
From:
Germany
|
Posted 6 Jul 2018 11:17 am
|
|
Guitars tuned a half step down? I didn't try it because I'm to tired at the moment.
_________________
Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube. |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 6 Jul 2018 11:31 am
|
|
I though about just putting it all in C than I remembered Byrd's arrangement of Steelin' the Blues in Db so staying in the original key seemed interesting. Guitar could have been tuned down but hard to see why they'd do that. And yes, it's basically a Flamenco progression similar to songs like Sultans of Swing, In the Year 2525, etc etc. with the initial chord as a major instead of the usual minor.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com
Last edited by Andy Volk on 6 Jul 2018 1:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 6 Jul 2018 1:09 pm
|
|
| David Sheads wrote: |
| having grown up a pianist, i'd feel more comfortable reading music in Db, which is also to say, i don't ever recall seeing a song actually written in C# major (seven sharps) or Cb major (seven flats), when you could more easily go with Db major (five flats) or B major (five sharps). |
Our musical notation gets its mathematical elegance from having been developed in an era when paper and ink were expensive. So the aim is to put as little on the page as possible, and the choice of key depends on how many accidentals the most frequent harmonic progressions generate. If you do as in the present Flamenco-ish example and write in sharps you get naturals instead of double flats - less ink = easier to read. Another song might benefit from being written in flats if it has a lot of II or VI chords.
| David Sheads also wrote: |
| do you have to stay in the original key? if at all possible, just put it in an easier key. |
I would say - if at all possible stay in the original key, because the author chose it for a reason. Of course there are numerous practical reasons for moving it. But remember everybody - Happy Birthday is in Eb!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Randy Schneider
From:
SW New Mexico, USA
|
Posted 6 Jul 2018 1:40 pm
|
|
| Joachim Kettner wrote: |
| Guitars tuned a half step down? I didn't try it because I'm to tired at the moment. |
The guitar intro is the same sequence of intervals over all four chords, and can be played very easily with an E-shape barre chord in C# at standard pitch (or tuned down). If one wanted to use an A-form barre, it would be tuned a half-step down (fingering a D position down to A).
Could go either way. |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 7 Jul 2018 3:48 pm
|
|
yall might want to listen again starting at 1:30 the bridge where he recites. someone is singing a minor third so that would make the chord there Db minor. wilson is playing 5ths in the bass a Db and an Ab second and third string.
the next chord you can hear a Bb very clearly at the end of the bar so i vote for a Bbmin chord over more 5ths in the bass F on the third and Bb above that on the fourth string which is classic brian wilson bass for sure.
also the pitch of the track is way off from standard 440. lots of times by the time the cut is tracked and then played back for mixing and then played back again for mastering the tape machines back then would be running at different speeds and three times different speeds would result in tracks being flat or sharp.
you cant listen to the guitar in this cut for key center as the player is playing the same formation bar chord. i was hoping to hear an open string someplace.
interesting song. i vote for the chords based on other notes i heard. as chet atkins used to say..."thats my opinion...it should be yours". 
PS dont even go to those sites on the net that give chord changes. all of them are wrong when the song has difficult to hear changes. i have a friend who is an absolute beach boy fanatic. i might run this by him. he is a stellar piano player. |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 8 Jul 2018 12:27 am
|
|
Bill is right about tape speeds. And some of the hard-to-hear chords are the result of poor attention to tuning. Their music was landscape-changing but in the creative rush it sometimes lacked the polish we usually expect. Instance the harp intro on Wouldn't It Be Nice. Iconic, sure, but it still makes my teeth hurt.
So Andy, after all this it could be in C or D! It's certainly not in an exact C#, and we don't know what it was uploaded to YouTube from.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 8 Jul 2018 5:21 am
|
|
I really appreciate everyone's input here.
Absolutely correct about tape speeds and other factors that often make us question the pitches we're hearing.
Bill, I'm not fit to carry your guitar case yet, on the spoken word section as there's no melody, I'm not hearing what you're hearing.
For the purposes of my lap steel arrangement a I, iii, IV, V seems to work to my ear. Maybe it's because I'm an improvisor by nature. Often, I find I care less about the composer's intent than whether something sounds right to my ear. I realize this is blasphemy in some circles - especially when you're talking about someone as intuitively brilliant as Brian Wilson.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com
Last edited by Andy Volk on 8 Jul 2018 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 8 Jul 2018 9:03 am
|
|
answer from my friend who hangs out with the beach boys and recently recorded with david marks one of the original BB members. i will have him ask brian wilson if he gets the chance to get a message to him.
"I totally agree with you about that chord. I'd never thought about that chord but it's just another example of the brilliance of Brian that came from the way he heard things and it really jumps out to me as a high point in those changes making a pretty common chord progression uncommon and beautiful. By the Way I think that's Dennis singing that minor 3rd." |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 8 Jul 2018 12:49 pm
|
|
Thank you for that extra effort, Bill.
So, if I understand you correctly, for the spoken word chorus I'm using:
I iii IV V
And you're saying it's really ....
Im VI IV V
Is that right?
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 8 Jul 2018 1:07 pm
|
|
i was just more interested in what the beach boys were doing. i dont really think anyone can actually capture the exact tonal thing they are getting. its a mixture of the voices and the bass and the low end guitar sound all melding together.
99.99% of people who listen to this song have no idea what they even did so just do whatever it is that you think conveys your sound and your interpretation. wilson is not even singing the melody there, so however you interpret it will be just fine. be fun to hear what you come up with. |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 8 Jul 2018 4:03 pm
|
|
The mix is quite haunting. As brilliant as Brian Wilson was and is as a composer/arranger, a lot of the Beach Boys work remains rooted in its era. Songs like In My Room and this one truly seem to have a timeless quality.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 8 Jul 2018 4:39 pm
|
|
if you want to see where wilson got his muse from just go to youtube and look up bob flannigan the lead singer with the four freshmen. it will all make sense. he just utilized much hipper stuff and used the surf music that capital records made money from as his start. he wanted to go farther musically. they wanted to make money. classic pop music battle. was he a genius....bach was a genius. bach wrote more spectacular music in one cantata that he dashed off onto paper in just a day or so than wilson wrote his whole life, but....pop music can have its genius types too.
listen to this. 1966 on the andy williams show. this is a four freshmen type arrangement and this really shows where they got their vocal style from. no bunch of pop kids from that era sang like like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLfhvSvBTX8 |
|
|
|
Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
|
Posted 9 Jul 2018 5:02 am
|
|
The 'haunting' for me is: at the end of the descending line (G#). the next change almost goes to G#m--that is, there's a moment
of major/minor ambiguity implied (unless it's my imagination, but that's where music occurs).
Such moments from Brian Wilson seem to make up his genius, altho I'd stop before that word myself. Bach=genius, few others need apply.
But a great ear. I agree with Bill about the source of those harmony lines. It's kind of like the Four Freshman were doing college jazz
and Brian brought it to high school. Beautiful stuff.
A similar question about key came up with Sweet Home Alabama. I'd stick with the first chord in the song for the key. |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 9 Jul 2018 6:44 am
|
|
Well said. Also the Hi-Los as well as the Freshmen were influences on BW.
I read that Brian said “when you wish upon a star†influenced Surfer Girl.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
|
|
|
Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
|
Posted 9 Jul 2018 8:00 am
|
|
Hi-Los! (Speaking of bossa nova, here's a Hi-los arrangement of Misty as a samba. The orchestration is influenced by Gil Evans, IMO.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRt8ObbPjKY&list=PLNofCfEErVdHmj7bEO6gNPTX6PnwgQ7Yp
The Four Freshmen and Five Trombones was cool, a big-selling record, arranged by Pete Rugolo.
Looking for that factoid, I came across this in Wikipedia:
| Quote: |
| It was the first album bought by Brian Wilson, who would be greatly influenced by the Four Freshmen when starting The Beach Boys. |
But seriously, I'd probably change the song to start a similarly descending line beginning with the G#m, and then modulate back to C#,
but I've gotten in trouble for changing the arrangement so much that I've changed the changes. Why not?! Probably a separate topic.
(Andy, you got to hear this, My One and Only Love, 1964 (speaking of vocal arranging). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX5F46C9ClA&list=RDNq-44isL2WQ&index=16 |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 9 Jul 2018 10:23 am
|
|
| i have worked with the four freshmen several times. flanigan, alpers, and ross barbour were still with the group and a friend of mine ray brown a keyboard player from ft walton beach had joined. they have all passed on now i would think, unless ray is still around. we were at a party one day when they were working a week long gig here in atlanta. i wish i could dig out the tape i made of them just sitting by a swimming pool singing those hits. anyway, even the four freshmen always got a kick out of having influenced wilson and his vocal arrangements. them and the hilos....thats a lot of great singing to worth hearing. we always thought of the freshmen as jazzers who sang because they were also fine musicians. they were self contained and did gigs providing their own back up. the hi los were strictly a pro singing group using a back of group of musicians. |
|
|
|
Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
|
Posted 9 Jul 2018 10:39 am
|
|
| I did not realize they played their own instruments! Far out, Bill. |
|
|
|
