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Topic: Speaker break in ? |
Kevin Quick
From:
Sacramento, Calif
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Posted 29 Jun 2018 4:04 pm |
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Just thought I'd throw this out there. Wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience.Had amp rehabed and put a new tt15 speaker in. Also put new pup on e9 neck. Hooked things up as usual and the highs were way off the chart nauseating! So put old pup back in right? Same thing. So after hours of messing around finally found the problem. I had always hooked up a couple of effects between pup and volume pedal. Took those out of the loop and still same problem
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Emmons Resound 65 D10, Zum hybrid, Sarno Revelation
Last edited by Kevin Quick on 10 Jul 2018 5:44 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 29 Jun 2018 5:58 pm
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Sounds like the effect of high impedance load on the PU – most effect units have pretty high input impedance.
Maybe a Sarno FreeLoader as first stage would allow for taming the highs to your satisfaction. |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 4 Jul 2018 5:55 pm
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Is the Freeloader doing the same as the Black Box, but solid state instead of tube?
Brad?
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 4 Jul 2018 6:39 pm
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Kevin, what are you using - specifically? Volume pedal, effects and amp brands, models etc (and speaker. I have no clue what "TT15" means as there are multiple speakers that could fit that abbreviation. What work was done on the amp and by who?
Then we might be able to help you. As is all we can do is toss out random guesses.p Impedance mismatch is certainly one - but it probably would have been present before you had the work done.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Edward Rhea
From:
Medford Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 4 Jul 2018 6:58 pm
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“TT15†or Double-T, the Travis Toy Signature Speaker from Eminence... I believe, Jim?
_________________
“TONESNOB†|
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Kevin Quick
From:
Sacramento, Calif
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Posted 6 Jul 2018 6:32 am
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Hi Jim, volume pedal is an E. Ball vp jr. (I don't use the tuner out.) Effects are Boss DD7 and electro harmonix B9 organ. Yes the speaker is an Eminence Travis Toy 15". Amp is an 80's Evans FET 500. Tuned up and some parts replaced by Derrell Stephens who built those for Evans back then.
Thanks Kevin
_________________
Emmons Resound 65 D10, Zum hybrid, Sarno Revelation |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2018 8:03 pm
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My first thought - you need 20-40 hours of mid-volume playing (at minimum) to break in the speaker. All new speakers (except unusual "pre-broken-in" models) are very *tight* and prone to icepick highs.
Other than new (so called) "reissue" Jensens, Eminence speakers are the most in need of a break in period. I have not installed that model but have installed dozens of others and found the same "issue" - which really isn't an issue, it's just part of dealing with new speakers.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Kevin Quick
From:
Sacramento, Calif
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Posted 7 Jul 2018 5:13 am
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Ok thanks. I've heard about break in time for new speakers but had no idea that it could be that extreme. Definitely getting the ice pick highs.
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Emmons Resound 65 D10, Zum hybrid, Sarno Revelation |
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Kevin Quick
From:
Sacramento, Calif
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Posted 10 Jul 2018 5:37 pm Update
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Just wondering if anyone else has had this experience with eminence speakers. Still getting ice pick highs after maybe 25-30 hrs of breaking in at playin with band volume. Treble on old speaker was set at 5-6 now 1-2 Got it hooked up to 20hz sine now. Wil try that for 24 hrs or so.
_________________
Emmons Resound 65 D10, Zum hybrid, Sarno Revelation |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2018 6:38 am
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Instead of a 20 Hz signal, use a radio signal, or some other music source. That will "break-in" the speaker much more effectively than a single tone ever will.
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Best regards,
Mike |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 11 Jul 2018 7:32 am Speaker Break-in
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I have 2 Cube 80XL amplifiers. One has been used a lot more than the other.
The one with the most use now sounds much better than the other.
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2018 10:10 am
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Using a single tone to break in speakers can affect the frequency response as they get "trained" to that frequency.
VBecause of this (and having experimented with countless new and reconed speakers over the years) I use an mp3 player (so he amp doesn't have to stay on) and loop classical, big band jazz and/or progressive rock at medium volume. I use either an isolation cabinet or a speaker cab buried in moving pads, heavy blankets, old pillows etc.
The volume needs to be medium gig volume or the process will have little effect.I do the same thing with every new and reconed speaker I install - saves a bucketload of complaints.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Kevin Quick
From:
Sacramento, Calif
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Posted 11 Jul 2018 11:41 am
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Ok thanks again Jim. I'll try that. How long do you do this process?
_________________
Emmons Resound 65 D10, Zum hybrid, Sarno Revelation |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 11 Jul 2018 12:13 pm
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Not trying to be a smart a here but an honest question.
Is speaker "break in" a real thing? If so, what does it do? Loosen the cone paper?...and what does that do?
Is there any real evidence or measurements that validate this effect or is it just that your ears get accustomed to the sound? Inquiring minds...and all that. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 11 Jul 2018 12:41 pm
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I just noticed that you are playing through an 80s Evans FET-500LV. Derrell built mine for me in 1985.
Those amps produce a lot of highs. A lot. With the stock speaker that came in mine, I couldn't turn the treble up past about 1.5 or 2, particularly when the Expand switch is in the on position. I replaced that speaker with a neo SICA speaker and that helped tame the highs quite a bit. Even so, many times I have the treble turned completely off.
Also, if you have the Body control backed off below 5, you start dialing in upper mids, which can compound the problem of too much treble.
Do you have the instruction sheet that explains the controls on that amp?
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Ray DeVoe
From:
Hudson, FL
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Posted 11 Jul 2018 1:28 pm
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I totally agree with Lee as to the fact that you cannot run the treble up more than 2 on an Evans FET 500 unless you are using a speaker that does not reproduce the high frequencies well. I ran Evans FET 500 amps for years and I ended up putting 1501-4 BW's in most of them. My treble setting was always at 1.5 to 2 with the BW's. They were great amps but I became a tube amp fanatic around 15 years and drifted away from 100 % solid state amps.
I just purchased my first Double T 15" speaker 3 weeks ago and I can easily state this. It's a very efficient and great sounding speaker. I installed the speaker and a 500 watt power module in a Webb cabinet and it sounds great to me right out of the box. I'm sure it will loosen up more with time but its a "keeper" just as it is. I have a re-coned JBL K 130 and power module in a second identical cabinet and the JBL is still brighter sounding than the Double T.
I have been a JBL fan for years but the Webb cabinet with Double T is the one I have been taking out to play. The really good sound with a 10 pound weight savings make for a great combination.
Ray D
_________________
Zum SD 10 Hybrid, Zum D 10 Hybrid, Emmons SD 10 P.P.
SMS: Revelation & Classic Preamps: Furlong 12" & 15" Splits.
Telonics 500 C: Quilter-T.T.12": Fender T.M. Twin |
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Kevin Quick
From:
Sacramento, Calif
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Posted 11 Jul 2018 1:35 pm
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Thanks for the replies on the evans. Kinda narrows it down for me. Been thinking about a new amp anyhow. Quilter steelaire rack or little walter 89?
_________________
Emmons Resound 65 D10, Zum hybrid, Sarno Revelation |
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Ray DeVoe
From:
Hudson, FL
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Posted 11 Jul 2018 1:43 pm
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Kevin.
There is absolutely nothing negative about running a Fet 500 Evans. They are still out there and liked by many players. Weight might be the only issue for some of us "senior" age players.
As to your thoughts toward a new amp, that really depends on your personal likes and how "deep" your pockets are.
Ray D
_________________
Zum SD 10 Hybrid, Zum D 10 Hybrid, Emmons SD 10 P.P.
SMS: Revelation & Classic Preamps: Furlong 12" & 15" Splits.
Telonics 500 C: Quilter-T.T.12": Fender T.M. Twin
Last edited by Ray DeVoe on 11 Jul 2018 11:10 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 11 Jul 2018 1:43 pm
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| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
| Is speaker "break in" a real thing? If so, what does it do? Loosen the cone paper?...and what does that do? |
In most speakers the cone material is rather stiff/rigid to begin with, which effects how much of the cone that gets pushed/pulled for higher frequencies as vibrations radiate out from the coil. Exposed to vibrations over the entire range, the cone will over time soften slightly, which changes how the vibration radiates outwards depending on frequency. After a while exposure to vibration – 50 to 100 hours or so – the cone has reached a more or less stable state and won't change much further, at which point the higher the frequencies the less of the cone vibrate with them … the speaker is "broken in" and will continue to "process" – time and spread – sound-vibrations in a certain way.
| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
| Is there any real evidence or measurements that validate this effect or is it just that your ears get accustomed to the sound? Inquiring minds...and all that. |
Running a rising frequency from a tone generator through the speaker, lets us measure a difference between a "not-broken-in" and a broken in speaker, so it is more than just our ears getting used to the sound over time. As not all makes and models of speaker cones are made of the same material, the difference is much larger in some than in others. Also, some producers break in their speakers before they reach the market, in which case we can neither measure nor hear much of the break-in effect when we buy new stuff. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 11 Jul 2018 5:15 pm
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Kevin - What settings are you using on your Evans?
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Jul 2018 6:22 pm
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| One "old school" alternative is to just hook the speaker up to a filament or door-bell transformer and let it hum for a couple of days! This will be a fairly loud 60-cycle hum, so it's a thing probably best done in a basement or garage. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 11 Jul 2018 10:21 pm
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
| "Using a single tone to break in speakers can affect the frequency response as they get "trained" to that frequency..." |
I am skeptical as to the veracity of this statement. Can you provide some supporting evidence? |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 12 Jul 2018 2:21 am
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I'll throw the following into the discussion…
http://www.eminence.com/speaker-break-in/
https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction
https://blog.fluance.com/what-is-a-speaker-break-in-period/
… and just state that I haven't run into any speaker that doesn't change – however slightly – how it sounds after being used for a while.
As for breaking in speakers by feeding them a constant sine-wave signal: I never have and never will do that, for a number of reasons:
a) no speaker can handle a strong sine-wave for long without being deteriorated, or having its coil blown. The coil in a 100Watt speaker can for instance only handle maybe 10 to 25Watt for more than a few seconds, or it will overheat.
- Thus, on one hand the signal into the speaker cannot be pushed to max unless the sine-wave is pulsed into it in short bursts with relative long "cool down" periods in between each burst.
- On the other hand, "constants" like sine-waves don't replicate normal working conditions well, so the break-in will be incomplete no matter how long a speaker is exposed to them.
b) If a solid state power amp is used, it will run into a similar overheating problem when strong sine-waves are used for long. Most (non class A) solid state output stages are only designed to dissipate the average heat they produce when used with music, which is a small percentage – maybe 10 to 20% – of the amp's max output power. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 12 Jul 2018 6:58 am
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Without getting into the proper technical terms, we all use our own choice of words to describe tone. Similarly, some say "fat chance" and some say "slim chance." In the realm of chances you have two, "a slim chance and a fat chance." With regard to tone, we use a variety of words, "fat, thin, mellow, crisp, bite, round, smooth, boxy, nasal", etc.
My personal experience with the 1501 after break-in, each 1501 in the same cabinet sounds different and requires tweaking the amp to get my tone. Of my 4 1501's I have one that I prefer.
I've been using two Eminence EPS-15c speakers in matching cabinets for the past 2 years. They are broken in and sound identical. Powered with a Revelation and Carvin HT400 amp.
The description of the Evans tone sounds similar to my old Peavey 400 Limited. I have to nearly turn the treble off to rid it of "brightness", but I never could zero in on complete satisfaction. However, my old 1974 Session 400 sounds awesome with the proper 1501.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 Jul 2018 8:24 am
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For those who are interested (or those who care to do a little research), the use of a filament transformer is accepted, quick, and safe (if done properly)...at least according to Ted Weber of Weber Speakers:
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When I was at the Weber Speaker site in Kokomo, IN 3½ yrs ago I asked Ted how HE broke in speakers - he said MOST of the time with a filament transformer, but occasionally with a Variac... I had never heard of this before, 'thought it would send the cone and voice coil 'across the room'... Ted said to "do the math" (how much voltage = what wattage) and he did the 'conversion section' that I have on my website. The filament transformer is used just to check if you have a voice coil rub... With a Variac you can REALLY "push the limits" (if you want).
The 'trick' with the Variac is - it HAS to be able to go to ZERO volts. I had several Variacs, and got rid of most of them when I got back to my shop. For ALL speaker check-outs I use a Staco 3PN1010V, or Powerstat 3PN116B.
Ted asked me, "How do YOU check speakers when you do a recone?" I said I just hoist it up in the rafters at the shop and play a CD thru a high wattage amp - like ZZTop, BBKing or Albert, then go for a LONG lunch...
He said, "Yeah, and when you get back you might have the cops waiting for you... With a Variac ALL you hear is a 60cycle hum IF the speaker is healthy. AND the only people you 'annoy' is someone that's within 25 ft. of the speaker." It WORKS GREAT!
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Follow this link for the proper way to break speakers in using this method...
http://www.unclespot.com/speakerbreakin.html
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