| Author |
Topic: Bebop scales |
Fish
|
Posted 14 May 2018 9:06 pm |
|
| Thank you, Paul. Post of the year. This is so honest, informative and helpful to those in pursuit of musicality on our instrument of choice. |
|
|
|
Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
|
Posted 15 May 2018 2:29 am
|
|
Paul, thanks for sharing your improvisation concepts with us, it is very enlightening! Rick, thank you for sharing "The 6th Diminished Scale for Pedal Steel" concept with us. I especially liked your use of the word "mash" in your explanation ("If we mash the 6 chord and the Diminshed7 chord together"), reminding me of the old Neil Flanz Sho Bud instructional record he put out that used the term "mash pedals A and B.  |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 15 May 2018 6:19 am
|
|
| Paul, Are there any YouTubes of you playing Bebop Jazz solos on Steel that we can check out? |
|
|
|
scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
|
Posted 15 May 2018 12:52 pm
|
|
great thread. and just what I need!
here's amazing video of Paul playing Oleo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo63xoGCeAg
_________________
1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster |
|
|
|
Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
|
Posted 15 May 2018 2:34 pm uggh
|
|
well.... that makes too much sense.
I don't know how much longer I can justify not ordering the paul franklin method course... I keep telling myself that my life is too busy but the argument is getting hard to stand behind. I spent endless hours before I had kids working on the franklin CD courses and came out with so many concepts.. dang. this guy is a treasure.
_________________
MSA Vintage-XL, Pre-RP Mullen
Nashville 400 w/blackbox, Space Echo. |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 16 May 2018 8:43 am
|
|
'Just watched Oleo, and I have to say, I love that type of music
I feel very comfortable with 6th-tuning chord forms, and soloing within those 1-4-2-5, 3-6-2-5, 1-6-2-5, segments I hear as the bridge in alot of these tunes.
Is HoneySuckle Rose a Bebop tune?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHbIGYshPuE |
|
|
|
manny escobar
From:
portsmouth,r.i. usa
|
Posted 19 May 2018 1:51 pm
|
|
Paul Franklin quote "The steel is a triadic based tuning which does not allow the same result..... In trying to emulate the guitars scale approach for learning I ran out of fretboard due to the instruments tuning. I was also becoming frustrated because the gaps between positions are too wide compared to guitars..Like it, or not, I had to accept that the steel is a one fingered approach to playing music due to using a bar for fingerings....." [quote]
A long time ago local lead guitarist Gary Farias used to work for Buddy Emmons. He once told me that the steel does not do enough for the big "E". I couldn`t believe it or figure it out but now I can thanks to Paul. |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 20 May 2018 8:25 am
|
|
Pete
Scrapple from the Apple, which you have backing tracks for, and is done by several steelers, is Honeysuckle Rose, with an I Got Rhythm B section
There are other bebop tunes based on Honeysuckle, such as Marmaduke and Ah-lev-cha, both by Charlie Parker
Bop style can be applied to most tunes - Oleo is I Got Rhythm, for example
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
Franklin
|
Posted 20 May 2018 8:16 pm
|
|
Manny,
"Buddy was a great musician who happened to play steel guitar"....Buddy was an intervallic thinker..
You are exactly right! To improvise as great as Buddy, not sounding like you study scales is a major obstacle to overcome...Buddy's generation and the next wave which was my generation had to teach ourselves these eye opening concepts. I know how frustrating it has been for me and I got to stand on his generations shoulders to see what was ahead....I can't imagine how frustrating it was to be one of the first to just get the instrument to tune well enough to knock down some of those musical barriers.
PF |
|
|
|
Jim Hoke
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 21 May 2018 7:46 am
|
|
| This is all great, useful information. Whatever gets you closer to where you want to go.... but in the end, the thing is to play music - not to play scales, codes and patterns. |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 21 May 2018 8:58 am
|
|
Paul
I have been playing jazz guitar professionally for 30 years or so, and have spent the last 8 years trying to apply that knowledge to the pedal steel - thank you so much for your clear and succinct point about the intervallic nature of the instrument - it is the best and worst thing about steel guitar, and it is a great relief to hear your thoughts on the subject of the necessary approach to improvising jazz (or any music) musically on the instrument
I really appreciate it
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
Steve Mueller
From:
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
|
Posted 21 May 2018 9:02 am
|
|
Great info from Paul and Rick. Been taking Paul's course by the way and it's changed my way of thinking about scales. I've been working on playing closer chord voicings when backing up without moving up and down the neck as much in both tunings and I think this approach plays right into Paul and Rick's ideas on improvisation too.
_________________
2016 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2015 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2023 Williams S12 4 x 5, Milkman Amps, 1974 Gibson Byrdland |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2018 9:48 am
|
|
Having reviewed much of the required listening for Bebop solo's, I conclude that they play way too fast for Pedal Steel Guitar. It's a limitation of the instrument, imho.
To my ear no one has ever played Bebop solo's on Pedal Steel, that keep up with Bebop on Guitar or Sax. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2018 9:56 am
|
|
Good one, b0b.
The most relevant comment thread:
harlon57
Is there any evidence that the great jazz artists were intentionally using these scales, or is this how jazz instructors later decided to arrange the work of the greats?
12tone
As far as I know it's the result of post-hoc analysis, identifying patterns that were already in common use. Baker believed that they were being used systematically, but to my knowledge they weren't formally defined prior to his work.
21 hours ago
harlon57
12tone I ask because every interview I heard, saw or read about an old timer they spoke mainly about chord tones, not scales. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2018 10:19 am
|
|
PS. I agree, Pete, in terms of speed. Bebop does offer steel players everything else that can be done on other instruments though, in terms of harmonization, placing strong notes on weak beats or between beats and vice-versa, and adding chromatics to single note lines.
Buddy Emmons applied those concepts in his approach to impromptu blues and classic jazz, often at frightening tempos, if not quite Dizzy Gillespie speed. Videos of Buck Reid reveal a clear grasp too. I’m sure many of the great players past and present enjoy having this knowledge and ability, even if they never would have made it in a Coltrane tribute act. |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2018 10:32 am
|
|
| I am pretty sure that Speed that those guys can play at is what defines Bebop. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2018 10:49 am
|
|
Uptempo is a defining characteristic, but not the only thing. Some of Benny Goodman’s stuff is extremely fast, but it probably wouldn’t be defined as bop.
Anyway, all I meant was that a study and appreciation of bebop can broaden a musician’s horizons, even if the tempos are completely out of reach. I don’t even care for the music, to be honest. But studying it has helped me understand things in a way I would never have gotten otherwise, and I enjoy applying bits and pieces of that knowledge in non-bopped up tunes. Like what you did with Honeysuckle Rose, Pete. That was a fun listen.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 19 Aug 2018 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2018 10:52 am
|
|
If you can't play it as fast as the guys that can, I don't think it should be called Bebop.
There must be some other name used in the industry for Bebop played without speed, i'm guessing? |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2018 10:58 am
|
|
| They didn’t know what to call Django’s music either. How about... “good� |
|
|
|
Greg Koenig
From:
Nevada, USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2018 2:37 pm
|
|
Wow what a great discussion, thank you steel guitar forum! I have spent a lot of time trying to apply guitar to steel with classical and jazz text JS Bach to Ted green.
Rick I will review your post throughly when I have more time
Chris have you studied George Russells Lydian dominant approach?
Paul do you recommend a similar approach to E9?
For now my new course of action follow Paul's recommendation. |
|
|
|
Joseph Napolitano
From:
New Jersey, USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2018 6:10 pm
|
|
| Anyone that would like more of this type of advice from Paul should consider enrolling in his groundbreaking course, if you haven't already. |
|
|
|
John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
|
Posted 20 Aug 2018 9:58 am
|
|
Pete Burak: how about Bee Plop? Bee Slop? Bee Sludge? Bee Sloth? 
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
|
|
|
John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
|
Posted 20 Aug 2018 9:59 am
|
|
Just want to say a big Thanks and Wow! to all contributing to this amazing thread. I'm copying and saving like mad for future study and reference. This is where the Forum shines!! Special thanks to Paul, Christopher, Fish, Rick, et al.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 20 Aug 2018 10:22 am
|
|
| John McClung wrote: |
| Pete Burak: how about Bee Plop? Bee Slop? Bee Sludge? Bee Sloth? |
Maybe Post a vid of yourself taking a shot at playing some Bebop, John.
|
|
|
|
