| Author |
Topic: Bebop scales |
Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
|
Posted 12 May 2018 11:11 am |
|
Admittedly, I am not well versed in scales or knowing what notes in a scale determine that scale beyond major 7th, minor, etc. When it comes to Dorian, fridgeon, Mixolidian, not even sure I’m spelling these scales correctly, but I am lost.
I also play guitar and have been viewing some Bebop scales. Interesting!
My question, is there a pedal and string combination that this Bebop scale approaches?
Any insight connecting the dots is appreciated. |
|
|
|
Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
|
|
|
|
John Goux
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 13 May 2018 11:50 am
|
|
Until this moment, I’d never heard the term “bebop scaleâ€, and I’ve been playing jazz and studying for many moons.
The Baker link is interesting to see. He has added a chromatic passing note to the frequently used scales and renamed them Bebop.
I think of these scales as variants of melodic minor, major scale, harmonic minor. Players often add chromatic passing tones to their lines. It never occurred to me to rename the scale because it has a passing tone in it.
I’ve not had much success working these out on E9. I would like to hear from other E9 players about their success in using these scales.
Fred Treece recently posted some great stuff on the harmonic minor.
My understanding, from players of that generation, is that the musicians who invented this harmonic advancement, Parker, Gillespie, Davis, Coltrane, etc, did not think of them as scales. They thought of them as color notes or altered tones.
The renaming of the scales is an educational enhancement. I’m all for anything that makes our understanding of music easier.
John
Last edited by John Goux on 13 May 2018 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
|
Posted 13 May 2018 12:59 pm
|
|
I am able to play some of these bebop scales on regular 6 string guitar. You really have to move the bar around on pedal steel. I was hoping to get a piece of this scale via pedals and knee levers to get familiar with a position.
Gonna be a challenge 🤓 |
|
|
|
Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
|
Posted 13 May 2018 3:15 pm
|
|
| Len Amaral wrote: |
I am able to play some of these bebop scales on regular 6 string guitar. You really have to move the bar around on pedal steel. I was hoping to get a piece of this scale via pedals and knee levers to get familiar with a position.
Gonna be a challenge 🤓 |
You can easily play a major scale at any fret by just stepping on and off the A&B pedals as you run strings 8-7-6-5-4, picking up string 2 as your 7 note, or using a knee lever / string 4 for it. So you could play, at least, the scales he refers to as "dominant" and "major" Bebop by just dropping your bar back one fret one time to pick up the passing tone. Be fairly clean I'd think.
I'm not sure I'm understanding your question right though.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
|
|
|
Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
|
Posted 13 May 2018 4:31 pm
|
|
As I listen to some of the bebop scales on YouTube, they sound jazzy and bluesy with the passing tone without adding a lot of tension. I don’t know if I am explaining this correctly..
In the Key of G, part of the scale would include E-F-F#-G-E-F-C
A very nice sounding usable phrase |
|
|
|
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
|
|
|
Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
|
Posted 13 May 2018 6:57 pm
|
|
Jim,
I play a U-12 so E9 or B6. The optimum thing would be to connect this scale in different places along the neck. |
|
|
|
Franklin
|
Posted 13 May 2018 7:08 pm
|
|
| ...I prefer learning the C6th neck and all of the notes that work over the chords at each fret position....This is an intervalic approach. Its kind of the same way you learn where chords are and how to use them. Now you view them as single note options....I believe this method is a shorter path over learning scales which are more of a pocket approach. Running a complete scale forces you to move the bar more to complete the notes of any particular scale..Music composers advise against and some even look down on improvisations that sound like scale patterns......Intervallic is a simpler way, yet it sounds more musical because its less predictable than a scale pattern....Once I gained an understanding on how to use approach notes, and began mixing approach notes with intervallic designs, on the C6th neck I began to improvise at a much higher musical level than the years I studied and played scales......I figure I waisted four to five years focusing on scales only to find out that all of the musicians I admired like Bill Evans, Chick, Herbie, Brecker, Marsallis, etc are brilliant intervallic improvisers. Adapting this approach to the steel guitar freed up the entire C6th neck. I highly recommend learning this approach from the start. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 13 May 2018 9:27 pm
|
|
Paul, it is interesting to compare your philosophy to Ted Greene’s. Maybe it is a guitar vs pedal steel thing. It seems you both share the emphasis on chord tones, but Ted was a believer in scale fluency. Pockets and position playing for him was the key to learning the neck, and connecting the positions is the key to “It’s All One Position Nirvanaâ€. That is the approach I have been taking to steel, but your point makes me pause to reconsider. It was a long haul following Ted’s method.
Regarding the bebop scale - as with learning any scale or mode, it is about learning note locations more than how to play. The bebop scales are made up of 8 notes rather than 7, so playing them start to finish in 4/4 as 8th notes always gets you to the next measure. I wonder if there are 8 modes in each bebop scale? Now that is downright creepy... |
|
|
|
Franklin
|
Posted 14 May 2018 4:32 am
|
|
Fred,
In my opinion Ted Greene is one of the greatest players as well as teachers on the guitar....
The difference between a pedal steel and guitar has to surface for students to realize a one size all approach is not necessarily the best way to learn the neck for all instruments. Especially triadic tuned ones.
This is my analysis based from my studies.
The way a guitar and piano is played and how they are tuned allows the ability to run scales and scale patterns a full three octaves providing a completed access to the full neck of the guitar. The most important advantage they have is using 4 digits to note any single string....A guitarist has easy access to multiple notes on any string. Not true on steel guitars. The steel is a triadic based tuning which does not allow the same result..... In trying to emulate the guitars scale approach for learning I ran out of fretboard due to the instruments tuning. I was also becoming frustrated because the gaps between positions are too wide compared to guitars..Like it, or not, I had to accept that the steel is a one fingered approach to playing music due to using a bar for fingerings.....It should be pointed out that the steel tunings do not even allow us to invert the chord voicing for most chord types....Because musically I need as much harmony as possible I had to choose what purpose a pedal serves...After about five years of scale frustration I was not any closer to my musical goal... I discovered that learning scales did not bring about the same result as a guitarist gets from the scale method of learning...Again the main obstacle for me....The bar, I determined the type of speed a guitarist or pianist could achieve playing them with multiple digits was going to be a major problem for me using a bar..I even tried putting frets on a steel, but then I realized I loved the steel sound the way it was..I just needed a path to get the music in my head out to the strings...Because my pedals were designed to add more triadic options to help me narrow the chordal gap of possibilities, unfortunately they did not in most cases provide more scale access. Playing scales on steel were incomplete and extremely difficult to pull off compared to guitarists....And the bottom line was I was still no closer to knowing where the music lays on the fretboard....I knew there had to be a better way musically. Changing how I viewed the fretboard is when I discovered the true strength of the steels improvisational advantages.
Now lets talk about music and music improvisation. Players like Eric Johnson, Mike Stern, Alan Holdsworth, essentially all of the great Jazz players drop the sound of scales from their vocabulary when improvising.....So did keyboardists like Herbie, Evans, Corea, and saxophonists like Coltrane, Brecker, Marsallis snd so on. I learned through a Jazz friend about what they were doing musically and I learned about intervallic/triadic improvisation. My scale years were waisted because I assumed a one size all approach to learning the fretboard would get me there. In fact due to the tuning I had to learn the neck a different way to find where all of the sweet notes are for intervallic improvisations. Most of Buddy's licks would be analyzed as triadic/intervallic. Oddly that one bypassed me until this door opened. Finding a new way to view music improvisations and the neck of the steel was crucial to the way I now play.
A light bulb went on for me...I had been learning something that does not provide usable access to the music I wanted to play. Look at the head to Chic's "Got A Match" "or Spain." Both are fast tunes and are almost pure triadic ideas sprinkled with a few scale notes to connect the triads....As I started looking at all of the other genres I realized I would have been better off skipping all of the stuff I had to leave behind anyway....It became very clear to me that learning where all the intervallic/triadic possibilities are located and how to apply the approach note method to connect them within in each chord type was my shortest path to musicality. It was an eye opener and a new way to think about the instrument that actually works.....Listen to Buddy's intro on "kicks to boot" all triads, very musical, and very easy to play fast....The steels tuning is advantageous to the modern approaches to improvisations....When they use the sound of scales its usually just a few notes weaving in and out not the three octaves players are taught in scale books....For me it came down to the simplest resolution....Why not learn the fretboard knowing where everything is found that relates to the two basic triads for chord construction...major & minor?
Learn how to connect those positions and the sky is the limit.....
Paul Franklin |
|
|
|
Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
|
Posted 14 May 2018 6:55 am
|
|
In my opinion. Maybe the best post ever written for those of us who have or in my case had and interest in playing jazz on pedal steel. Only wish I could have read it 30 years ago. Could have saved me a ton of time and even more frustration. You guy's starting out today have no idea how good you have it.
b. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 14 May 2018 7:17 am
|
|
Thank you, Paul.
Yeah, that one’s a keeper. I think I’ll frame it. |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 14 May 2018 7:49 am
|
|
Paul’s post on this subject is clear and, in my view, correct, from the standpoint of tonal jazz improvisation. The idea of using scales as improvising tools is a fairly late innovation, largely based on George Russell and his association with Miles Davis, leading to the Kind of Blue recording.
Straight ahead bebop style jazz is tonal music, meaning it’s all about leading melodically from chord to chord. Scales are used, but the chord tones are the basis for the improvised line. What has become known in David Baker/Jamie Abersold world as the Bebop scale wasn’t originally used by the bop innovators as a scale at all, but as added tones to lead to chord tones. If you analyze Charlie Parker’s playing (a very very good idea), you will find his main use of this is actually over the ii chord, leading chromatically to the b3 of the ii chord, then usually proceeding with an arpeggio, often in the opposite direction.
Learning where the chord tones are, as Buddy Emmons and Paul Franklin both suggest, and learning how to lead into and out of chord changes, will do much much more for your straight ahead non modal jazz playing than anything.
There are many sources for ii V I patterns available - these will teach you exactly how to do this. I also recommend a terrific book by Bert Ligon called Connecting Chords Through Linear Harmony - very clear and simple approach that combines stepwise movements with chord changes. I also practice daily using the Charlie Parker Omnibook, more to find the patterns and ideas on the steel than anything else.
Note - all of this stuff is playable in any tuning. I personally use Bb6 Uni since it works with my thinking the best, but anyone can play jazz lines in any tuning with some study.
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
|
Posted 14 May 2018 8:22 am
|
|
Paul,
Could you define the term intervallic in some fairly simple way? I don't understand it, so I don't understand what you're saying.
Thanks, jeff
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 14 May 2018 8:49 am
|
|
What percent of the 6th-tuning Bebop soloing is done without pedals?
Can you guys recommend a few Bebop song titles that we can play along with on YouTube? |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 14 May 2018 8:55 am
|
|
Pete
I think it really depends on the player - Buddy Emmons used very little pedal movement in his jazz single note playing, I believe Buck Reid uses a fair amount.
While not even remotely in their class, I do both, depending on what I’m trying to do.. I usually play without another chordal instrument, so I need to combine single note and chordal playing, for which I do use pedals, both for the chords and to create easier pockets to play in
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 14 May 2018 9:22 am
|
|
Which songs on Bucks Album are considered Bebop songs?
I have the background tracks and can give it a shot.
Scrapple from the Apple? |
|
|
|
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 14 May 2018 9:38 am
|
|
As far as YouTube - type in Charlie Parker and it’s 99% bebop
Billies Bounce - F blues
Koko - Cherokee
Anthropology - Bb I’ve Got Rhythm (known as “rhythm changesâ€)
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
|
Posted 14 May 2018 10:18 am
|
|
Hi all... I'm cutting and pasting an article I wrote for a seminar I was gonna do for the AZ steel show that never happened. It's somewhat related to this "Bebop" scale subject, so even though it might be TMI.... hopefully not....but here it is:
The 6th Diminished Scale for Pedal Steel
I recently had a bit of a revelation while recovering from a not too serious surgery. On the first day of my recovery, just by good fortune, I found a YouTube video of jazz great pianist and educator Barry Harris. He was showing his improvisational jazz piano class a "new" scale and system of harmony that he claims to have discovered. He was doing amazing things by applying this harmonized scale to standard tunes! Looking into it a little further, I've found that he is really credited as the guy who "discovered" this Harmonic Rosetta Stone of a scale.
I was intrigued!
Since I have found no information on how to apply this to the Pedal Steel guitar, I thought I'd figure out how it lays out on the tunings I'm most familiar with...E9 and C6... and it lays out really well! I think it can unlock many secrets that we are all looking for in understanding our instrument and the larger universe of Musical Harmony in general!
____________________________________________________
The "6 Diminished Scale" can be made up of both the traditional Major or Minor scales, but with the addition of ONE NOTE..... the #5. I will explain...
For example, in the Key of C Major, you have the usual 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, and octave...but by adding one more note, the #5, you have the C Major 6 diminished scale. i.e. 1,2,3,4,5,#5,6,7, and octave. An 8 note scale.
The same concept works for minor. All you have to do is flat the 3rd.
The fun starts when you harmonize the scale. This also explains why the #5 note was included.
The concept is extremely simple and symmetrical; the scale is built by using only 2 chords.... a Major 6 chord with its 4 inversions, and a Diminished 7 chord and of its 4 inversions.
e.g. A C6 chord is made up of C (1), E (3), G (5), and A (6)
Note* this is a 4 note chord- this entire concept is based on this! ( *Music Theory fact*---The Major 6 is the first chord created after you extend the Major Triad by adding the next note in the Major Scale. i.e. the 6....totaling to 4 notes.)
Now learn all of the "inversions" of this C6 chord. e.g. First inversion starts on C ( the root--- 1 ), it's second inversion, is the same chord, but starts on the E (or 3rd) ... this same thing goes for the 5th and 6th intervals too. There are only 4 inversions with each starting on one of the notes of the chord it’s made of.
Now play a 4 note D Diminished 7 chord. (Starting on the 2nd degree of the C scale)
D (2), F (4) ,G# (#5), and B (Maj7)
Note that this chord also has just 4 inversions.
If we mash the 6 chord and the Diminshed7 chord together by alternating every other note with the next inversion of each chord, the notes will create a harmonized C Major Scale, but with one additional note in the scale….. the #5... Creating an 8 note scale.
The C diminished 6 scale is made up of 2 parent chords:
C6:
C (1) E (3) G (5) A (6)
Ddim7:
D (2) F (4) G# (#5) B (7)
The C minor diminished 6 scale is just the same, but with a b3 (Eb)
_______________________________________________
I have tabbed out the harmonized scales on both the C6 and E9 pedal steel tunings. Both are in the key of E and both contain the exact same notes. I decided to show the examples in E to make it a little more E9 friendly.
Note*- the bottom note of each chord corresponds to each of the 8 note scale degrees.
Note** The UP/Down Arrow signify which pedal and KL combination to use. e.g. on E9, a down arrow on string 8 is the E-Eb lower, whereas 2 up arrows on string 10 is the B-C# raise
( the "A" pedal)
Once again, keep in mind that every other chord in the harmonized scale will be either an inversion of a Maj6, (or minor 6 chord-in the minor scale) and a Dim7 chord. Starting with the 6 chord. (In this case the key of E)
Notes on C6:
This concept really lays out well on C6 due to the fact that the open tuning is a 6 chord! If your copedant doesn't have the A-Bb change on one or both A strings, remember that the trick is to alternate 6 chords and diminished 7 chords every other scale degree starting with the bottom note of each chord. It's all there; you just might have to move your bar a little more. You just have to look for it... I'm sure there are many ways to arrive at the same end. Also, since these are all 4 note examples on adjacent strings, it is possible to "rake" the chords if you are like most and use only 3 picks.
This is probably the same approach to take on a U12 tuning also... i.e. in "6 mode".
Notes on E9:
I think this concept on E9 could possibly be a game changer for some, in 2 important ways:
1.) Thinking from the "bottom up" of the tuning, and just understanding the low strings in general. It can be enlightening to know things like the 10th string open at fret 5 is an E note, and that open strings 10, 9, and 7 are a minor triad....etc. etc.
2.) A lot of E9 players are interested in getting C6 sounds on their tuning. This concept is tailor made for this!
*Remember* though that to really "get" this you must think in terms of 4 note chords, which might be a problem at first for some 3 pick users. You will have to either arpeggiate each chord, as there is one string skipped in each one, or just bring your 3rd finger into play. I promise it's worth the effort!
________________________________________________
A couple other things to consider:
The whole idea of this is to learn how the diminished chord is used as a "Passing Chord" in different situations. This goes for almost every kind of music!
Using this scale in fragments to connect chords in a musical progression is the goal.
For example, it is possible to use the Maj6 scale as a substitution for it's relative minor. e.g. the E6 as a C#min etc.
HAVE FUN!
 |
|
|
|
Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
|
Posted 14 May 2018 10:43 am
|
|
Rick,
I love your use of up and down arrows.
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 14 May 2018 10:49 am
|
|
Great stuff, Rick!
I have a bunch of Barry Harris’s piano exercises for his diminished concept - amazing
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
John Goux
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 14 May 2018 12:28 pm
|
|
Paul, thank you for that.
Now, practically speaking, how does a player practice what you recommend?
I’ll condense your post to the payoff...
“A light bulb went on for me...I had been learning something that does not provide usable access to the music I wanted to play. ....It became very clear to me that learning where all the intervallic/triadic possibilities are located and how to apply the approach note method to connect them within in each chord type was my shortest path to musicality. It was an eye opener and a new way to think about the instrument that actually works........The steels tuning is advantageous to the modern approaches to improvisations......For me it came down to the simplest resolution....Why not learn the fretboard knowing where everything is found that relates to the two basic triads for chord construction...major & minor? “
How do we aspire to this understanding of the fingerboard/music, as a daily practice?
John |
|
|
|
Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
|
Posted 14 May 2018 2:35 pm
|
|
| Wow, so much to absorb. Thanks for everyone’s input. Listening to various guitar players on YouTube playing bebop scales is helpful to hear the tone and how it’s applied. 👠|
|
|
|
