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Topic: Sustain thru electronics? |
Tom Vollmer
From:
Hamburg, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 3 May 2018 5:17 pm |
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| Just surfing You Tube and picked up on a steeler demoing add on box of sorts. I am not giving opinion on the plus or minus effects of the box. I am addressing one statement made about the box adding to sustain. Years ago at Scotty's convention one brand of steel was calling their latest pickup Super Sustain. As I walked along I came upon Ron Lashley and asked him what he thought of another brand Super Sustain Pick up. Ron told me something that I never forgot, namely any steel when picked will only sustain as it's long as it will with or without an amp. Adding any gadget will not make the instrument strings decay any faster or slower. Adding a tape or something or something would sound longer only because the original sound is reproduced. |
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john widgren
From:
Wilton CT
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Posted 3 May 2018 6:28 pm Smile
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Tommy...your playing always makes me smile!
You are so right.
Yerbud,
JW
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widcj@hotmail.com |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 3 May 2018 7:27 pm Re: Sustain thru electronics?
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| Tom Vollmer wrote: |
| […] any steel when picked will only sustain as it's long as it will with or without an amp. Adding any gadget will not make the instrument strings decay any faster or slower. Adding a tape or something or something would sound longer only because the original sound is reproduced. |
Correct … until we add loud amps and "feedback" into the equation. I don't mean the "howl" or "squeal" associated with overdriven 6-string held close to its own speaker, but the little less dramatic effect of riding on the feedback by use of VP and/or compressor/tube-amp, without actually allowing any feedback effect to be heard.
I do it, and I expect most other steel players do too. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 May 2018 9:58 pm
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The Ebow and the new TC Electronic Aeon give you unlimited sustain. I remember seeing a YouTube video of lap steel than had a similar sustaining coil for each string.  If you could dial back the strength of something like that to allow a slow decay, you'd have a longer sustaining steel guitar that didn't sound weird. In theory.
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 4 May 2018 4:52 am
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Running the amp at a high volume and controlling the sustain with the volume pedal is something that some players haven't learned. That said, for us, the action of reducing decay or "sustaining" sounds is generally built on four things (in no particular order) - the guitar itself, the hands and bar, the amplifier, and the volume pedal. And with moderate capability in these areas, I see no problem in sustaining notes or chords easily for several seconds, to maybe even ten to twenty seconds in some situations.
I mean, really now...how much "sustain" do you need?  |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 4 May 2018 6:57 am
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| I mean, really now...how much "sustain" do you need? |
Indeed. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 4 May 2018 7:16 am
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| Adding vibrato after picking the string will add sustain. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 4 May 2018 7:51 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Running the amp at a high volume and controlling the sustain with the volume pedal is something that some players haven't learned. That said, for us, the action of reducing decay or "sustaining" sounds is generally built on four things (in no particular order) - the guitar itself, the hands and bar, the amplifier, and the volume pedal. And with moderate capability in these areas, I see no problem in sustaining notes or chords easily for several seconds, to maybe even ten to twenty seconds in some situations.
I mean, really now...how much "sustain" do you need? |
Donny has been preaching this for years.
It's good to be reminded every now and then. |
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Butch Mullen
From:
North Carolina, USA 28681
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Posted 4 May 2018 8:12 am
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| Friend of mine told me he played a show one night with his old Gibson flat top, the next day he opened the case and the guitar was going HMMMMMMMMM.....now that's sustain!!! |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 4 May 2018 9:51 am
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Whatever gadgetry or technique can be used to cause the string to continue vibrating is what adds sustain. A volume pedal creates an illusion of sustain, albeit a slightly less artificial sounding one than say, a compressor.
Georg, respectfully, I am not sure I understand what kind of feedback you are talking about. A pickup either feeds the signal back and forth or it doesn’t, correct? I just assume this causes the string to continue to vibrate, but maybe it is a purely electronic phenomena? |
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Paul Arntson
From:
Washington, USA
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 4 May 2018 12:34 pm
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I kinda like that one. There is a similar thing built into the Boss GT-10, but I don’t think it does chords. I liked the demo video with the Wavy Gravy look-alike too  |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 4 May 2018 1:26 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Georg, respectfully, I am not sure I understand what kind of feedback you are talking about. |
Fred, I'm talking about "body vibrations", driven by an instrument's own amp via vibrations throught air and/or floor/bandstand. So, it is an entirely physical phenomenon.
Some PSGs are "better" than others in how they pick up and distribute vibrations through soundboard/body and legs, but the ones I have most experience with do distribute high energy vibrations at a fraction of string frequencies – both ways / to and from the bridge, causing the strings to continue to vibrate at their fundamental tone (whatever that is) if their own amp delivers strong enough audio signal – vibrations – to provide the necessary "kickback".
Nearly three decades ago I performed some mini-tests where I attached a transducer to my PSG (and some other electric instruments) to see how they performed with more direct and controlled feedback. (The transducer used is in essence a speaker without a membrane, tailored to make any object it got attached to to act as a membrane.) Although those tests were successful – could make the strings ring like with an EBow under perfect control by the player, it wasn't practical to attach the heavy lump of a transducer permanently to the PSG. Feedback from the amp – although not as effective as a built-in transducer – is more practical. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 4 May 2018 2:21 pm
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Thanks, Georg. I think I understand some of that
So it is still dependent on fairly high volume, and can reliably sustain the fundamental pitch of a ringing note, rather than produce the random harmonic squeal and howl of the “guitar in the speaker cone†thing. |
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Peter Harris
From:
South Australia, Australia
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Posted 5 May 2018 3:26 am
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...or you could try looking here:
http://www.sustainiac.com/
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If my wife is reading this, I don't have much stuff....really! |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 5 May 2018 6:21 am
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Back in the 70's or 80's, I met Carco Clave (known as Carlos Claveria to me) at Cowtown in San Jose. He was playing a push/pull, and had built a little pedestal that he put his guitar on, and used a tall stool placed behind the guitar to sit on. If I remember right, he told me he had a JBL mounted in the pedestal pointing up to the bottom of the guitar to help with sustain. And, it kept him high enough to discourage people from asking him for requests.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 5 May 2018 9:32 am
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This is an excellent source of information on the subject, and a very interesting looking guitar product. I wonder if it would work on pedal steel? Thanks for posting, Peter. |
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Mike Poholsky
From:
Kansas, USA
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Posted 6 May 2018 4:21 am
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https://youtu.be/g7-5io1muSQ
I think Nigel has it figured out.
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Zumsteel 12 Universal
SGBB
ShoBud VP
'64 Fender Twin Reverb/Fox Rehab
Fender Steel King w/BW 1501-4
FX to Taste |
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Paul Arntson
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 16 May 2018 11:03 pm
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Funniest movie ever. Have you ever listened to the version with the voiceover where they stay in character? Priceless.
_________________
Excel D10 8&4, Supro 8, Regal resonator, Peavey Powerslide, homemade lap 12(a work in progress) |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 May 2018 3:18 pm
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Magnetic pull from the pickup can affect the amount of sustain a guitar has.
There are manufacturers that brag about this helping sustain by the nature of their magnetic field.
Strats are notorious for the warble of 3 single-coil magnets have on intonation.
The difference would be subtle.
I recently changed a steel from a Truetone to a BL 710(2) and noticed a slight improvement in sustain. The fundamental seems happier. It could be something to do with the magnetic fields.
John |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 May 2018 4:28 pm
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| John Goux wrote: |
Magnetic pull from the pickup can affect the amount of sustain a guitar has.
There are manufacturers that brag about this helping sustain by the nature of their magnetic field.
Strats are notorious for the warble of 3 single-coil magnets have on intonation.
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The magnetic pull, if it's excessive, could reduce the amount of sustain. But there's no way that pickups could enhance it. Normally, this magnetic dampening doesn't bother steel guitars much because their pickups are close to the bridge. The "warble" heard on some multi-pickup guitars is caused by slight phase differences in the pickup signals which induces a type of inter-modulation distortion.
IMHO, Lashley's comments about sustain are somewhat self-serving, and must be taken with a grain of salt. You can't argue that increasing the signal from a pickup by increasing volume as the signal decays doesn't add to the amount of audibly observed sustain. That's just basic physics.  |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 19 May 2018 9:59 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| You can't argue that increasing the signal from a pickup by increasing volume as the signal decays doesn't add to the amount of audibly observed sustain. That's just basic physics. |
Physics is also behind a plucked string’s inability to perpetually vibrate. Although it is a valid and valuable technique, a volume swell merely increases the electrical signal of a decaying note, and it sounds like it. Adding vibrato while adding volume prolongs string vibration somewhat and makes the note sound more alive, but that has a shelf life too. I don’t see anything lamentable about that. We are not playing organs or violins. Ways to keep the string vibrating longer, and not just increase the volume of a decaying note, have already been mentioned. |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 21 May 2018 1:18 am
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| Then again, a moderately set high gain amplifier can make an electric guitar string sing forever - at least the notes where the harmonics line up in a constructive fashion. Though it is an advantage for the electric guitar to have its body more or less parallel to the plane of the wave coming out of the amplifier. |
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