| Author |
Topic: E9th, The overlooked tuning? |
Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
|
Posted 25 Apr 2018 4:11 am |
|
Working with new tunings has been very interesting.
The one I was most enjoying was some of the E13th variations.
Somewhere in there it occurred to me how much these were really much like the E9th on my pedal steels. Unlike most players I have used C# for the 2nd and 9th strings on my PSG's since the late 70's and raised them by knee to D & D#.
Anyway I changed the strings on my center neck from E13th to my version of E9th on the first 8 strings. Without strings 9&10.
I never in all these years realized how much is available here without pedals and knee levers.
Guess thats because I started out on this tuning and always had the pedals and knee levers to rely on.
Loads of nice slants as well as easy to find melodies just like in straight E13th tunings.
I had to wonder why more steelers don't use this for a non-pedal tuning?
First are the two obvious forward slants to get the 4th and 5th chord, A & B.
Next a real nice reverse slant to get the 5th as a dominant 7th chord, B7.
Then there is the minor triad forward slant on strings 4, 5 & 6.
These are easy to slide into and out of almost like a pedal/knee effect.
Also usable Minor 7th (Sans the 3rd tone) on strings 1, 2 & 4.
There are also many others to be found as well as using moving pairs of notes on two strings for nice harmonies. 
The grips are all familiar to other tunings so not much there to get used to.
Well thats my 2¢ worth... Well worth what it's cost you. 
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
|
|
|
L. Bogue Sandberg
From:
Chassell, Michigan, USA
|
Posted 25 Apr 2018 8:09 am
|
|
Your reentrant upper makes total sense for someone going between pedal and nonpedal. But my pedal steel days are 30+ years behind me, so a straight sequence is comfortable. There are probably slant advantages either way.
Recently, in anticipation of a new 10 string lap, I've switched the outer neck of my D8 from the lower 8 to the upper 8 of the Tom Morrell tuning, making it a straight version of yours. When the 10 string is finished, I'll leave the 8 string neck in it's current set up, toggling string 8 between root and b7, depending on the tune. |
|
|
|
Tom Campbell
From:
Houston, Texas, USA
|
Posted 25 Apr 2018 9:07 am
|
|
Hi guys,
Great info. I'm transitioning from a U-12 to no-pedal.
I have a D-8...E13 on the bottom neck and B11 on he top neck.
I am struggling with the D string on the E13 neck. My U-12 did not have the D string, so I am not use to having it "staring-me-in-the-face". Any suggestions what I can replace the D string with? |
|
|
|
L. Bogue Sandberg
From:
Chassell, Michigan, USA
|
Posted 25 Apr 2018 12:27 pm
|
|
| Tom, don't be too quick to give up on that D string. My pedal steel was a U12 also, so I know where you're coming from. But after 12 years of playing G13 on an 8 string resonator (hi>lo = DBGEDBGF) it's been the lower F# in the Morrell tuning that trips me up. The solution, as always, is lots of practice and lots of patience. I'm starting to play the tuning with the band now. And they don't burst out laughing. |
|
|
|
Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
|
Posted 25 Apr 2018 4:20 pm Not much different
|
|
Not much different between the E13th and the E6+9th except for the order of the strings.
My point was that even if you never play a pedal steel the E9th with those two top strings (the 6th and 9th scale tone) offers a lot to any player.
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 26 Apr 2018 4:10 am
|
|
| Tom Campbell wrote: |
Hi guys,
Great info. I'm transitioning from a U-12 to no-pedal.
I have a D-8...E13 on the bottom neck and B11 on he top neck.
I am struggling with the D string on the E13 neck. My U-12 did not have the D string, so I am not use to having it "staring-me-in-the-face". Any suggestions what I can replace the D string with? |
Please explain struggling??? And I am more than happy to help.
What is the actual challenge?
When you state D string are you referring to the F# string which is the 9th in E13 or are you actually referring to the D string?
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
|
Posted 26 Apr 2018 6:35 am E9
|
|
| D string is crucial for 7th chords. It is essential to me. F# takes time to avoid when not needed but again crucial when needed for patterns and such. Guess depends on what you need. Kind of music etc. If playing rock and such may not need. |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 26 Apr 2018 9:26 am
|
|
The b7 D and the 9th F# are both needed indeed.
Not only for 7th, 9th ... chords but minor chords as well.
B, D, F# are the same intervals as A, C, E on any 6th tuning. Which is a MUST. So don't think its ever unnecessary. otherwise you will be sadly mistaken and be limiting yourself sooooo much.
Doesn't matter the genre
Also it is needed when soloing whether playing blues/rock/pop/jazz or whatever.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 26 Apr 2018 3:49 pm E6/9
|
|
I like almost everything about this tuning. Having the C# there in the string 2 position and B at 5 might throw me off a little, but I can see a fairly doable reverse-slant unison with those two strings where they are.
Andy, do you do a behind-the-bar pull on string 5 to true up the major third on your forward slant for the A and B chords in your example? |
|
|
|
Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
|
Posted 26 Apr 2018 6:39 pm Re: E6/9
|
|
| Fred Treece wrote: |
I like almost everything about this tuning. Having the C# there in the string 2 position and B at 5 might throw me off a little, but I can see a fairly doable reverse-slant unison with those two strings where they are.
Andy, do you do a behind-the-bar pull on string 5 to true up the major third on your forward slant for the A and B chords in your example? |
Hi Fred,
I think of this almost like two tunings, the bottom four strings are diatonic in order and the high five continue the diatonic when alternating thumb and finger.
When looking for a melody or harmony notes I'd use the basic scale shown here in C Major. Naturally both also can be going in reverse down the scale.
I do think of it in terms of finding melody and harmonies as well as full chords.
For slant bar work I look to see how all or parts of pedal/knee changes can be duplicated as well as anything else that is there. Many two string slants that sound like pedal steel, but thats not the only thing I'm after.
Yes for the reverse slant on strings 2 & 5 being an easy unison and so are strings 1 & 4. Also three very easy octaves, The 2 E's and the 2 G#'s as well as the E's and F#'s with a reverse two fret slant. Wes Montgomery comes to mind here.
For tunes that need the low D I'll drop back two frets or if it will be parts of the 7th chord I can retune the low E to D. Can also drop the F# to E with that when needed.
Also you asked about this "behind-the-bar pull on string 5 to true up the major third" and I thought someone would notice that.
I'm lousy at behind the bar finger pulls, but it's simply not needed because it does sound in tune to me. That was a surprise to me too and I can't explain why. Certainly not logical, but it sounds fine.
Here are a couple of moving chords that sound very nice;
As for pulling behind the bar, I'm in need of a lot of woodshedding to get those down. I have many years of playing PSG but am quite new to non pedal playing.
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.
Last edited by Andy DePaule on 26 Apr 2018 7:20 pm; edited 9 times in total |
|
|
|
Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
|
Posted 26 Apr 2018 6:56 pm Should be more clear here
|
|
Should be more clear here;
1 to 4 Chords in C or reversed it's 4 to 1
(C to F Chords in Key of C or reversed it's F to C )
The second one;
5 to 1 Chords in F or reversed it's 1 to 5
( F to C Chords in Key of F or reversed it's C to F )
Sorry if that was confusing...  
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 26 Apr 2018 7:25 pm
|
|
Not confusing Andy, but thanks for the extraplanation anyway.
Yeah I always wonder if there is something wrong with the way I hear those uneven chord slants where one string is obviously not producing a true to pitch note, because it usually sounds okay. I always feel like I should be pulling it up. Must be that cabinet drop thing.....  |
|
|
|
Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
|
Posted 26 Apr 2018 7:41 pm No cabinet drop here
|
|
Hi Fred,
No cabinet drop here because it's a lap steel, but it still seems in tune and sweet sounding. Wish I knew why?
When I play, I'm not trying to get the bar over a fret exactly but just in the neighborhood so it sounds right. The frets are just a reference point.
A little bar shiver also helps.
I guess that the E13th the fellows are chatting about above does make more sense in some ways, many ways, but for me the E9th with 6th tone is something I'm so used to.
I like that whatever I learn with this on lap steel also works on my PSG's and improves my playing on both instruments.
Thats one of the same reasons I prefer A6th over C6th. It all transfers to the PSG and the reverse too.
Best wishes,
Andy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 26 Apr 2018 7:47 pm
|
|
That was a lil’ joke there, Andy. Though I wish there was something like cabinet drop that I could blame when I play something on my Stringmaster that sounds a little squirrely.
Hey are you playing that lap steel that you were building a couple months ago? |
|
|
|
Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
|
Posted 26 Apr 2018 8:40 pm Missed that
|
|
| Fred Treece wrote: |
That was a lil’ joke there, Andy. Though I wish there was something like cabinet drop that I could blame when I play something on my Stringmaster that sounds a little squirrely.
Hey are you playing that lap steel that you were building a couple months ago? |
Missed that joke, but it's early morning here on this side of the big ball.
When I hit something that's not quite right I just give someone else in a band a dirty look and hope people think it was them.
Have not yet finished those two lap steels because I'm still working on winding the pickups.... Looking for that old time full warm tone.
I'd bet Stefan from the UK may be able to explain why that forward slant sounds in tune?
For now I have the E9th on my Morrell 8 string and the A6th on my Clinesmith aluminum lap steel.
On the tripple neck Clinesmith I have A6th, The E9th and C6th.
I did have F#9 which was cool and may well go back to that later.
For now, I'm using the C6th to work on some of Doug Beaumier tabs that I bought from him to get a jump start on non pedal playing. Only been serious about lap steel since I got the Clinesmith last July.
I'd never done much with tab before and just playing by ear until my ear lobe got wore out! 
I bought a tab tune in A6th from Mike Neer about two months ago and liked it a lot.
Thought it would take a week to get it down, but just a day was needed to learn it and then a few days to smooth it out.
Then about a month ago bought three of Doug Beaumier's tab books because he is one of my favorite players to listen to.
Two of the books are each 25 tunes all in C6th so decided to change one neck to that for learning the tunes. The other book has 16 tunes in C6th, A6th and B11th.
Once I learn a tune in C6th I then move it over to the A6th neck and see what can be done with it there. Because of the higher 5th tone on top there are often other ways to do the tune also.
His books are done with a 6 string in mind but the two extra bass strings can only help fill them out
The tab from both Mike and Doug are all well written out in tab and musical notation.
They also have backing tracks and samples of the tune played. Mikes tune (Steelin' Moonlight by Speedy West) came with a video also. I can barely read music so that is little use to me, but I'm sure helpful to others.
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 27 Apr 2018 2:08 am
|
|
The forward slants are in tune because the F# string in between give you enough space for perfect slants.
another example of this "space" is on 12 fret for ease of explanation for your E9 - which really is the core of E13 with a lot less options
B - 12
G# -12
F# - x
E -12
E Major triad root position
Becomes
Bb - 11
G - 11
F# - x
E - 12
Edim triad root position
This is an example of the "space" that 9th - F# gives us to get slants perfectly in tune.
I'll post some more E13 explanations later on an E13 thread rather than hijack this one.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 27 Apr 2018 2:10 am Re: No cabinet drop here
|
|
| Andy DePaule wrote: |
Hi Fred,
...
I guess that the E13th the fellows are chatting about above does make more sense in some ways, many ways, but for me the E9th with 6th tone is something I'm so used to.....
Best wishes,
Andy |
the 6th tone = 13th tone in E13.
So Think of E13 as an E6th tuning with waaaaaaayyyyy more options.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
|
Posted 27 Apr 2018 2:25 am Thanks Stefan
|
|
Thanks Stefan,
I figured you'd be the one to explain it better than I could.
I also use that forward slant on the top three strings on my A6th neck, A C# E.
No second note in between but it also works well there too.
I'm not concerned about getting hijacked... Feel free to add you ideas any time.
Your much more of a music student that I ever was. I just got into music to attract the girls! And sometimes it even worked!
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 27 Apr 2018 7:39 am
|
|
The reason the high C# is called the 13th in an E13 chord is because there is a 7th and a 9th below it (1-3-5-7-9-13).
In an E6 chord, the C# just a 6th (1-3-5-6).
If there is an F# but no D (7th), as in Andy’s tuning, it’s an E6/9 (1-3-5-6-9). |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 27 Apr 2018 10:55 am
|
|
| Fred Treece wrote: |
The reason the high C# is called the 13th in an E13 chord is because there is a 7th and a 9th below it (1-3-5-7-9-13).
In an E6 chord, the C# just a 6th (1-3-5-6).
If there is an F# but no D (7th), as in Andy’s tuning, it’s an E6/9 (1-3-5-6-9). |
Absolutely correct.
I'm trying to tailor my response to the C6 players so they realise E13 is not as strange as they think. Its a 6th tuning with more options.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 27 Apr 2018 11:56 am
|
|
| Stefan, any tuning gets a little strange once you slide away from the 1-4-5 home frets. I agree that the 9th and 13th tunings offer more options in the home positions, especially for single note melodic stuff. But things can get complicated in a hurry two frets down or three up, as compared to a basic 6th. You really have to learn the neck if you want to go roaming around with those tunings. |
|
|
|
Gary Reed
|
Posted 27 Apr 2018 3:28 pm
|
|
Andy,
What gauge on each string are you using?
Thanks |
|
|
|
Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
|
Posted 27 Apr 2018 3:42 pm String Gauges
|
|
| Gary Reed wrote: |
Andy,
What gauge on each string are you using?
Thanks |
F#--0.12P
C#--0.17P
G#--0.11P
E----0.15P
B----0.18P
G#--0.22P
F#--0.28W
E----0.32W
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
|
|
|
Gary Reed
|
Posted 27 Apr 2018 4:29 pm
|
|
Sorry to bother you Andy,
Sweet Tuning or 440 for you. |
|
|
|
Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
|
Posted 27 Apr 2018 5:13 pm Not a bother
|
|
| Gary Reed wrote: |
Sorry to bother you Andy,
Sweet Tuning or 440 for you. |
Hi Gary,
Not a bother at all.
I had been tuning to 440 for the last few months because a friend said he thought that best and he is a way better player than me.
He also has a much better ear than I do for intervals.
Was never satisfied with that and went back to tuning using harmonics so the 3rds and 6th tones were a little flat, about -7. The 9th a little less flat, about -3 and was somewhat more happy with that.
A month ago I got a Peterson Strobe tuner and am now using the E9th sweetened tuning and like it a lot better.
The tuner is a little on the expensive side, but sure does a nice job. It also has a sweetened A6th and C6th for my other tunings.
Liked this so much that the other day I also bought the Peterson app for my iPhone with the sweetened tunings so I'd have it at gigs too.
Best wishes,
Andy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
|
|
|
