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Topic: royalties for jams, club performances |
Bill L. Wilson
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2018 8:34 pm |
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| I don’t think most of these hole in the wall bars here in Oklahoma that can’t afford to pay attention, can afford thousands of dollars for BMI licenses. Most of them barely will give us $400, sometimes a chicken dinner or Bar-B-Q and a cold drink for a four hour gig. I just can’t see BMI showing up at a bar (literally in the middle of nowhere) around here to try and collect from these “Good Ol’ Boysâ€.....As for a set list?....You gotta be kiddin’.....We have never had a set list in the 7yrs. that I’ve been in this band. |
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Don R Brown
From:
Rochester, New York, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 4:16 am Re: royalties for jams, club performances
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| Darrell Criswell wrote: |
| I stopped in a Musical Heritage Center outside of Nashvile that does instruction and jams. |
Does the Center charge to play, or to listen (or both) at the jams? Or are they just a fun time for free that the Center provides a location for?
I presume the thing that triggers the fee is money changing hands at the venue. Otherwise I could see BMI cruising campgrounds in the summer, windows down, listening for some freeloaders strumming "Red River Valley" around a campfire.
_________________
Many play better than I do. Nobody has more fun. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 8:56 am
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| Jim Fogarty wrote: |
| John De Maille wrote: |
| Who is the recipient of these payments after all is sliced and diced?. |
Songwriters.
The venues make money by using their work. Why shouldn't they get paid? |
The songwriters got paid when they sold their song to an artist or to a record company. Did they not? Either they got a residual deal on sales or they sold it outright.
When some local guys are playing their tunes, it's like free advertisement for their wares.
Many times we've been asked as to where a certain song came from or who did it. Usually the interested party is interested in purchasing said tune. Now, we have supplied free advertisement for the songwriter or artist. Product sold, product used, product sold again. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Darrell Criswell
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 9:41 am Re: royalties for jams, club performances
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| Don R Brown wrote: |
| Darrell Criswell wrote: |
| I stopped in a Musical Heritage Center outside of Nashvile that does instruction and jams. |
Does the Center charge to play, or to listen (or both) at the jams? Or are they just a fun time for free that the Center provides a location for?
I presume the thing that triggers the fee is money changing hands at the venue. Otherwise I could see BMI cruising campgrounds in the summer, windows down, listening for some freeloaders strumming "Red River Valley" around a campfire. |
The jams are free, some jams ask for a donation for money to provide music lessons for poor children. The center makes it money from music lessons and seminars. |
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Jim Fogarty
From:
Phila, Pa, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 10:12 am
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| John De Maille wrote: |
| Jim Fogarty wrote: |
| John De Maille wrote: |
| Who is the recipient of these payments after all is sliced and diced?. |
Songwriters.
The venues make money by using their work. Why shouldn't they get paid? |
The songwriters got paid when they sold their song to an artist or to a record company. Did they not? Either they got a residual deal on sales or they sold it outright.
When some local guys are playing their tunes, it's like free advertisement for their wares.
Many times we've been asked as to where a certain song came from or who did it. Usually the interested party is interested in purchasing said tune. Now, we have supplied free advertisement for the songwriter or artist. Product sold, product used, product sold again. |
Nonsense.
Every time their intellectual property gets used, by rights the creator should be getting paid. Are you saying you don't believe in the concept of royalties? Or maybe you just don't understand it?
You're making the same specious argument that venues use when they tell us that playing there will be good "exposure".
Moreover......you may not like it. Tough. It's the law.
But I'll never understand why supposed musicians will argue so vehemently that other musicians and artists don't deserve to get paid. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 11:45 am
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| John De Maille wrote: |
Who is the recipient of these payments after all is sliced and diced?
This to me is a huge, gangster like scam perpetrated by these organizations. |
The performing rights associations keep track of the big sources (mass media) but obviously cannot know what happens in every night club etc. so they use formulas that do a pretty good job. Of course, there are plenty of writers who think the other guy is getting more than his share. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 11:53 am Re: royalties for jams, club performances
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| Don R Brown wrote: |
I presume the thing that triggers the fee is money changing hands at the venue. |
The law says songwriters are entitled to royalties for copyrighted work used in ''public performance,'' which it defines as a place ''where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered.''
| Don R Brown wrote: |
Otherwise I could see BMI cruising campgrounds in the summer, windows down, listening for some freeloaders strumming "Red River Valley" around a campfire. |
It was ASCAP, actually. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 12:12 pm
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| Jim Fogarty wrote: |
| But I'll never understand why supposed musicians will argue so vehemently that other musicians and artists don't deserve to get paid. |
The argument goes like this: It is OK for me to steal your stuff, as long as I give it away. |
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Darrell Criswell
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 12:29 pm
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Calm down guys!
There is an argument to be made that there should be a certain amount of use of copyrighted songs (or licensed or whatever you refer to it as) that should be free or very limited cost. It is not ridiculous to think I should be able to have a jam at my house, church, or the local coffee house, sing songs around the campfire etc., without it costing hundreds or thousands of dollars. Its really hard for me to believe that any significant amount of money goes from the licensing fee paid by a club or restaurant to the actual songwriters. And many licensed songs are not really original, AP Carter rearranged applachian folk songs and copyrighted them, Willie Nelson's Night Life, which is portrayed as a song where the rights were sold away for a paltry fee, is just a minor rearrangement and writing of Brownie McGhee and Rev Gary Davis's song Sporting Life Blues. So the idea that these royalty fees can in many cases be unreasonable and may have a negative effect on music is not an unreasonable position to take. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 12:45 pm
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
| Jim Fogarty wrote: |
| But I'll never understand why supposed musicians will argue so vehemently that other musicians and artists don't deserve to get paid. |
The argument goes like this: It is OK for me to steal your stuff, as long as I give it away. |
They've already gotten paid when they sold their material. Either in residuals from tracks sold or outright sales of their material. Like I stated in above mentioned post, it's free advertisement when any of us locals play their music. IF anyone personally records and sells the writers material, then, a royalty or fee should be paid. I understand that! But, to charge local guys for playing music in general doesn't make practical sense.
Oh, BTW.... there's a guy who's using a personal picture of my Zum as his profile picture without my permission. Should I charge him a licensing, royalty fee for that? Or maybe sue him. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 1:02 pm
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I'm all for intellectual property rights. But IMO, intellectual property law has been turned on its head the last 20-40 years. It's about lawyers, guns, and money.
I'll agree with the argument that singing "old" songs (e.g., more than 20, 30, 50 years old) without paying royalties is 'stealing' from the author(s) when a drug company (or other inventor) that, e.g., spends, literally, billions of dollars developing a life-saving drug, gets 70 years beyond the death of the inventor(s) to exclusively use and/or license the invention. Right now, patent law gives inventors 17 years after the invention date. For pharmaceuticals, this includes time spent testing and getting the drug approved.
We've had these arguments before. We're not going to agree. Let's say that I agree with Phil Alvin in this rant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd994qtXMJQ |
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Darrell Criswell
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 1:19 pm
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Dave:
Excellent video, thanks for sharing! |
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Bill Sinclair
From:
Waynesboro, PA, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 1:20 pm
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| John De Maille wrote: |
They've already gotten paid when they sold their material. Either in residuals from tracks sold or outright sales of their material. |
I don't think it works that way. Does anyone get money up front for their songs anymore? Writers have always gotten their money from publishing and performance royalties. If there is an advance paid, it's against those collectible royalties. Since almost no one pays for recorded music anymore, performance royalties are about all they've got.
That's been my understanding, anyway. If someone has real world knowledge otherwise, please correct me. I do have one friend who was a successful songwriter who had to sell her catalog to pay medical expenses so I guess she got paid for her songs but that was based on a predicted value and an established track record. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 2:04 pm
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| Bill Sinclair wrote: |
| John De Maille wrote: |
They've already gotten paid when they sold their material. Either in residuals from tracks sold or outright sales of their material. |
I don't think it works that way. Does anyone get money up front for their songs anymore? Writers have always gotten their money from publishing and performance royalties. If there is an advance paid, it's against those collectible royalties. Since almost no one pays for recorded music anymore, performance royalties are about all they've got.
That's been my understanding, anyway. If someone has real world knowledge otherwise, please correct me. I do have one friend who was a successful songwriter who had to sell her catalog to pay medical expenses so I guess she got paid for her songs but that was based on a predicted value and an established track record. |
They have to gat paid outright or a fee and residuals for their materials. Otherwise, nobody would write music. They could also promote themselves as artists and hope a company might sign them on. It's happened before. I still say, that, local bands ( weekend warriors ) shouldn't be penalized for playing music. It could and maybe be free advertisement for an artists material.
Just a thought... if you bought and paid for a CD or DVD of an artist for their material, should you be charged every time you pop iit into your machine to listen to? No. Youve just paid their fee. Why should you pay again?
However, I do believe that, performing an artists unpublished material without permission is stealing and should not be done and if so, penalized. |
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Jim Fogarty
From:
Phila, Pa, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 5:19 pm
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| Bill Sinclair wrote: |
| John De Maille wrote: |
They've already gotten paid when they sold their material. Either in residuals from tracks sold or outright sales of their material. |
I don't think it works that way. Does anyone get money up front for their songs anymore? Writers have always gotten their money from publishing and performance royalties. If there is an advance paid, it's against those collectible royalties. Since almost no one pays for recorded music anymore, performance royalties are about all they've got. |
Bill, you've got it right. A lot of people THINK they understand, but what you're saying is the actual fact.
Another fact is that unfortunately, in this modern era of internet and Youtube, etc, everyone thinks they should be able to own, listen to, use and exploit other people's creativity and work for free. It's especially galling that musicians feel that way about the work of other musicians, and tie themselves up in pretzel logic to explain why they shouldn't pay.
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Don R Brown
From:
Rochester, New York, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 7:23 pm Re: royalties for jams, club performances
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_________________
Many play better than I do. Nobody has more fun. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 18 Apr 2018 11:24 pm
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| Jim Fogarty wrote: |
| Bill Sinclair wrote: |
| John De Maille wrote: |
They've already gotten paid when they sold their material. Either in residuals from tracks sold or outright sales of their material. |
I don't think it works that way. Does anyone get money up front for their songs anymore? Writers have always gotten their money from publishing and performance royalties. If there is an advance paid, it's against those collectible royalties. Since almost no one pays for recorded music anymore, performance royalties are about all they've got. |
Bill, you've got it right. A lot of people THINK they understand, but what you're saying is the actual fact.
Another fact is that unfortunately, in this modern era of internet and Youtube, etc, everyone thinks they should be able to own, listen to, use and exploit other people's creativity and work for free. It's especially galling that musicians feel that way about t
e work of other musicians, and tie themselves up in pretzel logic to explain why they shouldn't pay.
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Here's a queerie for your pretzel logic theory and accusation.
What do you and or others play, how often and do you pay to play?
I seriously doubt, that, when you all go out to play or get together with others to jam, that, you're playing your own music exclusively. And, I seriously doubt, that, you're paying ANYBODY In order for you to play. |
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Bill Sinclair
From:
Waynesboro, PA, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2018 5:21 am
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| John De Maille wrote: |
What do you and or others play, how often and do you pay to play?
I seriously doubt, that, when you all go out to play or get together with others to jam, that, you're playing your own music exclusively. And, I seriously doubt, that, you're paying ANYBODY In order for you to play. |
John,
You're misunderstanding. It's not the players that are paying the BMI & ASCAP fees, it's the club owners.
Ultimately the weekend warriors like us DO pay because less restaurants and bars are having live music. They don't want to pay the fees on top of paying the bands. It's a tough scenario because I do understand that writers need to be paid from somewhere (and no, they don't get paid up front for their songs) but the egregious fees charged by the publishing companies (IMO) is a major contributor in limiting the local music scene. There are three jobs in the balance here: the songwriter should have some incentive to write good songs, the club owner needs to see enough positive reflection in his/her business to justify the cost and the musicians need a job that pays. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 19 Apr 2018 5:23 am
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| Bill Sinclair wrote: |
| There are three jobs in the balance here: the songwriter should have some incentive to write good songs, the club owner needs to see enough positive reflection in his/her business to justify the cost and the musicians need a job that pays. |
Four jobs. You omitted the Publisher.
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 19 Apr 2018 5:33 am Re: royalties for jams, club performances
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Quote: "The letter gave the highest possible penalty for copyright infringement: up to $100,000 per performance, and a year in prison."
A letter? Isn't that extortion? I wonder if ASCAP knows that they're regarded as thugs in some circles.
Heck, let's all capitulate, forget performance, we'll sit in circles and think music, take it back--into our heads, where it came from.
Air music. Take Back the Music! That'll fix ASCAP. Excuse my rant. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 19 Apr 2018 5:35 am Re: royalties for jams, club performances
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| Charlie McDonald wrote: |
Heck, let's all capitulate, forget performance, we'll sit in circles and think music, take it back--into our heads, where it came from.
Air music. Take Back the Music! That'll fix ASCAP. Excuse my rant. |
They can nail you for what you're thinkin' too... just consider the case of the card-counter in the casino. Just usin' his noggin, nuthin' else... 
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 19 Apr 2018 5:55 am
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| We can send them air royalties. |
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Darrell Criswell
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2018 5:59 am
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| The licensing system of BMI and others imposing flat fees for all the music they ever licensed doesn't seem like a very good system for getting money to the songwriters, but its a great system for getting money for the companies. |
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