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Topic: starting with the right tuning on 8 string lap steel guitar |
Maxime Ledon
From:
Steelopolis, France
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Posted 6 Apr 2018 10:33 am |
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Hi everyone and thanks for reading me !
This is my first post so it got to be good  !
I am here asking you nice folks some important advice to help me ride the path where I want to go.
Thing is I am not sure if I need to take the highway or the small road but I know the destination !
I’ve been playing guitar for 25 years and I started lap steel on a 6 string open E tuning doing blues kind of licks a few weeks ago.
I’d like to add more flavor to chords so I could play jam sessions going over jazz progressions but I really like the bluesy greasy thing too (eg. allman brothers).
I’ve recently got this nice guyaTone 8 string lap steel home and I need to choose a tuning to start from. The music that I come from is jazz, blues and funk. I love wah wah, I love fuzz and tube screamer ! Well I love Roosevelt Collier and Robert Randolph and I discovered recently on this forum the great Mike Neer, that I love too ! I also listened to some sacred steel that I absolutely love. Soulful Pete Drake is nice too even if on pedal.
What best tuning would you suggest knowing my musical interests ? I’ve come to understand that C6 goes a long way but what about those E tunings that should speak to a guitar player/blues ?
Thanks a lot for your help and advice. |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 6 Apr 2018 10:34 am
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I'd look into A6. Give you plenty of growl and it is a simple retune with the same strings to get it to C6, B11, and other tunings you might like to explore.
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Facebook group for you daily dose of Steel https://www.facebook.com/groups/steelguitarunionhall |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 6 Apr 2018 12:12 pm
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
| I'd look into A6. Give you plenty of growl and it is a simple retune with the same strings to get it to C6, B11, and other tunings you might like to explore. |
Totally agreed! You can play anything with A6 or C6 and use the same strings for B11.
E13 and other tunings are great but maybe not best to start with.
When you start getting a grip on C6 for exemple you can start altering the lower strings to C13 or C6/A7 |
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 6 Apr 2018 12:54 pm
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Hello Maxime. I play A6th mostly. As you will have noticed A6 and C6 are different in that the first has the major triad on top, and the second, C6, has the major triad on the bottom of a 6 string tuning. So they don't exactly alternate. The question you ask cannot be answered definitively. We could say the choice comes down to two things. There is more material out there, in C6. And where do you want the tonal centre of your music.
The absensce of a lot of A6 material should not deter a musician who works out there own arrangements.
_________________
Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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David Knutson
From:
Cowichan Valley, Canada
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Posted 6 Apr 2018 3:17 pm
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Hi Maxime,
Welcome to the forum, and to the never ending steel guitar journey. I will put in my vote for A6 as well. It's a great tuning for jazz/swing improvising, and you will find blues scale positions all over it.
It is true that there's a lot of C6 instruction available, but it's fairly easy to translate to A6. And having the 5th note of the chord on top is very handy.
Have fun.
_________________
David K |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 6 Apr 2018 4:02 pm
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Maxime, I like C13 tuning, the tuning of Jules Ah See, who was a masterful, funky Hawaiian player of great depth. I've found that it gives me plenty to work with. It's not the perfect tuning, but at some point you just have to figure out how to make the music on a tuning, and that's what I did. I got to know it well for Steelonious, as it seemed to fit Monk's music really well. Also, it is easy for me to make some very cool and personal tweaks that I need.
Having a low bass note is something that I also need. I prefer to have more strings in the low end than high.
Here it is, from high to low:
E C A G E C Bb C
Here is an example of C13 with wah, playing in a soulful style.
https://soundcloud.com/user-708420441/jitterbug-waltz-mike-neer
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 6 Apr 2018 5:30 pm
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I've jumped around a lot in my limited <1 year of playing steel...C6, A6, B11, various shades of E13, and pedal A7 just to really disconcert myself , but I'm going to side with Mike (albeit with vastly less authority!) on Jules' C13, particularly for 8 string (it has a permanent home on the front neck of my Stringmaster). For 6 string, regular high 3rd C6 is nice because it can also easily retune to A6 (giving a relative equivalent of high 5th C6) and B11 with the same strings. It probably has a lot to do with the amount of noodling I've spent in C13/C6 but it seems comfortable in a variety of music styles for me, not just Hawaiian. I think to some extent that is the key...although I just admitted to jumping around a lot, you have to spend enough time in one tuning to get familiar enough that you can find your way around it easily on the fly in whatever song or genre you are in. For me its C6/13, for others it'll be different.
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
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Posted 6 Apr 2018 8:51 pm
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| The basic C6 tuning, Low to High ( A,C,E,G,A,C,E,G ) enables you to also play in Am with open strings. A6 enables you to play in F# minor, which isn't a common key, so with the A6 tuning you would be missing out on being able to play hammer-on and pull off Blues style licks in Am, which also work over A7. A7 and Am are both common keys for Blues and Rock and Roll songs. That and the fact that there is more instructional material for C6 makes me think that it might be a better choice for you than A6. Best of luck with whatever tuning you end up choosing. |
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Maxime Ledon
From:
Steelopolis, France
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 1:58 am
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Woah ! thanks to all for your warm welcome and the great ideas you shared with me !
From what I understand I am going to try on the C6/C13/A6 road to start with and Mike ... your rendition of Jitterburg Waltz is really beautiful !
Well I see the minor and majors triads on C6/C13 and as you all say one's need to make music out of it, one way or another ! I still do not forget A6 ...
My main concern now would be string gauge wise, I have a short scale guitar so I guess it can take heavier gauges. I found some info on the forum and on john Ely's so I should be fine.
Thanks again |
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Maxime Ledon
From:
Steelopolis, France
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Posted 14 Apr 2018 5:43 am
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Hi everyone hope you're having a nice week end !
So that's been a week since I started my topic and so far I've stayed mainly on the A6 tuning.
The advantages :
- it has the same interval as a C6 7 to 2 strings so I can rearrange a lot of C6 stuff and that is nice.
- it is two 6,R,3rd,5th intervals up an octave in A so that is easy to remember.
- I found a lot of material on the web so far especially lessons from Eddie Rivers and Rick Alexander. Both give very good insight on slants and basic chord forms over A6.
one con (to me so far):
- missing the Root on top after the R,3rd,5th interval for blues playing which is one my main goal. I found some shortcuts with slants on A6 but that is not as automatic playing as it is with a 6 string open E tuning. I really miss that.
That is the same for C6 or C13 on the tuning I experienced, I don't have that R octave on top and I miss that (go play guitar you'd say lol).
- well I cannot play that Speedy West Boo-Wahish "Lover" song, missing that root octave again ...
At that point I realize I might have better bought a D8 lap guitar to have both A6 and E tunings ... I don't know, it would be very hard to find in France anyway.
I have a 6 string lap too with open E and comparing to A6 these are not the same animals. But I really do love A6 and it's full rich minor 7 sounds and I want to dig deeper, it's only one week after all ! I might try too the E9th tuning not very far string wise from A6 gauge.
Plus did I say I love my Guya Tone guitar ? it sounds lovely to me !
Any A6 "get bluesy" tips appreciated !
Have a great day. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 14 Apr 2018 7:21 am
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| Maxime Ledon wrote: |
one con (to me so far):
- missing the Root on top after the R,3rd,5th interval for blues playing which is one my main goal. I found some shortcuts with slants on A6 but that is not as automatic playing as it is with a 6 string open E tuning. I really miss that.
That is the same for C6 or C13 on the tuning I experienced, I don't have that R octave on top and I miss that (go play guitar you'd say lol).
- well I cannot play that Speedy West Boo-Wahish "Lover" song, missing that root octave again ... . |
As a lifelong guitar player who took up an interest in steel guitar late in life, I understand where you’re coming from. My first forays into steel guitar were in E based tunings, such as open E and Sol Hoopii’s C#min7, both 6 string.
I later had a desire to learn how to play like a steel guitarist rather than a guitarist, so I learned the C6 tuning the best I could. I resisted it for a long time with the same kind of logic that you described in your cons list. However, if I was looking to duplicate what I played on guitar, then why did I take up the steel in the first place. It was that realization that prompted me to abandon everything I knew and try to get inside the head of a steel player.
After a few years of putting the guitar aside and focusing strictly on steel, I became comfortable in my thinking and chops enough to reintroduce all that other stuff again. I am at a place now where I am making music the way I want to in spite of the limitations that at one time intimidated me. I still have far to go.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 14 Apr 2018 9:27 am
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Three pieces of advice:
1) Pick one tuning - any tun ing - and really dig into what that one tuning has to offer. No tuning has everything but every tuning has a lot. Don't fall into the trap of flitting from tuning to tuning. Once you know your core tuning well, when you do branch out, you'll do so from an informed place.
2) Think about tunings in terms of intervals.
3)
| Quote: |
It's not in the tuning, it's in the brain.
- Marian Hall, Steel Guitarist |
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com
Last edited by Andy Volk on 15 Apr 2018 3:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 14 Apr 2018 10:02 am
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| I lost my first year of steel trying to play what I played on guitar and lost the 5 next years trying every tuning I can. Since I decided to focus on one tuning I finally start making progress. I also had to stop playing guitar because I had to start thinking differently. |
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Maxime Ledon
From:
Steelopolis, France
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Posted 14 Apr 2018 11:45 pm
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Mike, Andy thanks for your words and advice that matter a lot to me.
I will follow your advice and I am going to focus on A6 because I like having the R,3rd,5th on top and it seems I can make some music out of it.
I understand I have to forget the guitar way of playing and that is the difficult part to me because I am missing some cultural background on steel guitar so I think I go back to botteleneck real guitar clichés as home base (eg allman brothers riffs or dereck trucks inspired).
But these days thanks to your advice and to the large amount of info on the forum as well as a heavy you tube browsing I am starting to discover various artists that I like. I am still very far to play my music as I first need to get the basics. Mike your modern approach on steel guitar is really mind blowing, to me.
Et Jean-Sébastien merci pour les conseils ! vive le Quebec et la "guitare acier sur genoux"  bien sur ! |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 15 Apr 2018 6:20 am
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| Maxime I don’t want to confuse you more but you are into Sacred Steel I think most of them use E7 tuning! |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 15 Apr 2018 9:46 am
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| Andy Volk wrote: |
Three pieces of advice:
1) Pick one tuning - any tuning - and really dig into what that one tuning has to offer. No tuning has everything but every tuning has a lot. |
All good advice but this particularly. |
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James Kerr
From:
Scotland, UK
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Posted 15 Apr 2018 2:10 pm
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| Jean-Sebastien Gauthier wrote: |
| Maxime I don’t want to confuse you more but you are into Sacred Steel I think most of them use E7 tuning! |
E7th on a D-8 Guyatone, not Sacred Steel or Jazz and no effects, just something for you to hear on your own Guitar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWVll5SxZ7M
James |
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Fred Casey
From:
Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 16 Apr 2018 6:21 am
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Hello, all. This seems like the best string to ask my question in. Since this is my first foray on the forum, so here’s a brief self introduction: I’m a convert from armpit guitar. I took a year and a half of lessons from Alan Akaka (great teacher!) but still consider myself a novice.
Here’s my question: it seems to me that with an eight-stringer you could tune the bottom three strings to some arrangement of Bb, C, and C#, and that would give you C6th/A7th and C13th tunings: three fairly common tunings without having to retune! I’ve never seen this combo mentioned anywhere, but it seems to make a lot of sense. I don’t have an 8-string yet, so I can't just try it. Has anybody out there experimented with this setup or one similar? If so, what advantages or disadvantages did you find? |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 16 Apr 2018 6:55 am
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| Hi Fred, I use Jules Ah See C13 and I love it! I sometimes tuned the Bb to C# for some Jerry Byrds songs or to G to play some bass on country songs. |
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Maxime Ledon
From:
Steelopolis, France
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Posted 16 Apr 2018 8:32 am
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Yes Jean-Sebastien, I've heard some songs and they use E tunings on sacred steels.
I have a 6 string lap tuned to open E so I can play some bluesy licks with my band.
Other thant that I really like A6 so far, I'm getting a bit on the slants and Eddie Rivers has some really nice chops on the subject, I love that player. Plus it's cool to play some jazz standards, I have a regular jam in my area and bringing a lap steel to play with the cats would really be nice I think !
I also have in mind to try Freddie Roulette A tuning, not very far from A6 and certainly great for blues playing has the R,3,5,R interval in it!
James your guitar looks great ! I have the same but just one neck, I wish I had the same ! thanks everyone. |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Apr 2018 10:24 am
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| Jean-Sebastien Gauthier wrote: |
| Hi Fred, I use Jules Ah See C13 and I love it! I sometimes tuned the Bb to C# for some Jerry Byrds songs or to G to play some bass on country songs. |
Well, that's Jules Ah See!
Who I think also used a C6 w/a Bb tuning too.
Imagine if Jules had lived longer, RIP. |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Apr 2018 10:31 am
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| Fred Casey wrote: |
.
Here’s my question: it seems to me that with an eight-stringer you could tune the bottom three strings to some arrangement of Bb, C, and C#, and that would give you C6th/A7th and C13th tunings: three fairly common tunings without having to retune! I’ve never seen this combo mentioned anywhere, but it seems to make a lot of sense. I don’t have an 8-string yet, so I can't just try it. Has anybody out there experimented with this setup or one similar? If so, what advantages or disadvantages did you find? |
So you have an E on top.
With that same set of strings - yeah, maybe not the ideal tension but OK - you can also tune from the C6 ( E top string ) variants to A6.
Then you can use the low strings to change to that Billy Hew Len A6 on the top 6 strings and a Bb and G on the bottom:
G Bb C# E F# A C# E
That makes a lot of tunings out of a single 8 string instrument - not to mention possible E tunings variations.
Another on the 6 string, from A6 = C# E F# A C# E
C# E F# A C# E to
B D E G# C# E for an E13
B D E G# B E for a common E7
add those 2 low strings, and there are so many possibilities!
and even back to 6 strings,
C# E G A C# E (easy to go to C6, C6/A7, A6)
for good and bad, as we know - it's hard to be proficient in every tuning. |
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Fred Casey
From:
Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 16 Apr 2018 3:19 pm
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Actually, what I’m trying to do is get three different tunings WITHOUT having to actually retune (I’m lazy that way). What I was envisioning was something like (low to high):
Bb-C-C#-E-G-A-C-E.
Then I could play C6th using string 7; C13th with string 8; or C6th/A7th with string 6.
Or am I just letting myself in for a lot of headaches?
I hope I’m not hijacking this string; that wasn’t my intention, honest!
[/u] |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 17 Apr 2018 2:07 am
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| Fred Casey wrote: |
Actually, what I’m trying to do is get three different tunings WITHOUT having to actually retune (I’m lazy that way). What I was envisioning was something like (low to high):
Bb-C-C#-E-G-A-C-E.
Then I could play C6th using string 7; C13th with string 8; or C6th/A7th with string 6.
Or am I just letting myself in for a lot of headaches?
I hope I’m not hijacking this string; that wasn’t my intention, honest!
[/u] |
Fred sounds like you are on the same path as many before. You can either form your own path which is hard, lonely but rewarding in itself.
Or use the existing solutions. What is interesting is that since C6 and A6 took over people forgot that there are 2 paths available.
I am a strong advocate for E13 as a combination So the lower portion is more than just E13 tuning over 12 strings. That is my path.
You need to find yours.
These questions are the same for anyone it has NOTHING to do with the genre of music as music is a language. So forget about the notion of a tuning being easier for a specific genre of music.
Do you want to follow a multiple tuning approach with multiple necks/guitars?
If so there is plenty of lessons, approaches, players and tunings. Use them and stick with it.
OR
Do you want to use a single neck?
If your idea is to use a single neck some hard study and honest questions that come up are...
Single neck questions I asked myself in no particular order:
Can I play triads in ALL inversions?
Can I play/Any chord with 3 key tones in as many inversions possible with all melody notes on top some call them grips?
Can I play a 2 octave scale with little movement as having a bar is like playing guitar with 1 finger?
Can I connect a scale laterally across the fretboard in what people call pockets?
Is the layout logical and positions playable?
Can I move from one chord to another using a chord scale in Triads ?
How many strings do I absolutely need to suggest all of the above?
What am I willing to sacrifice and what am I not willing to sacrifice?
Hope this helps.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 17 Apr 2018 2:18 am
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| Maxime Ledon wrote: |
Hi everyone and thanks for reading me !
This is my first post so it got to be good !
I am here asking you nice folks some important advice to help me ride the path where I want to go.
Thing is I am not sure if I need to take the highway or the small road but I know the destination !
I’ve been playing guitar for 25 years and I started lap steel on a 6 string open E tuning doing blues kind of licks a few weeks ago.
I’d like to add more flavor to chords so I could play jam sessions going over jazz progressions but I really like the bluesy greasy thing too (eg. allman brothers).
I’ve recently got this nice guyaTone 8 string lap steel home and I need to choose a tuning to start from. The music that I come from is jazz, blues and funk. I love wah wah, I love fuzz and tube screamer ! Well I love Roosevelt Collier and Robert Randolph and I discovered recently on this forum the great Mike Neer, that I love too ! I also listened to some sacred steel that I absolutely love. Soulful Pete Drake is nice too even if on pedal.
What best tuning would you suggest knowing my musical interests ? I’ve come to understand that C6 goes a long way but what about those E tunings that should speak to a guitar player/blues ?
Thanks a lot for your help and advice. |
Welcome Maxime!! Please see my post above to Fred.
Side note sacred steel is heavily 2 blues/pentatonic scales 99% of the time. To learn it play Amazing Grace.
Not downplaying it as there is alot of feeling to it in the vibrato.
Essentially choose a path and understand the path you are on.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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