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Topic: Another reason to play in the holes |
Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 1 Apr 2018 8:12 am |
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Not knowing what the mix is out front I would not want to step on the vocalist or other leads unknowingly. Better safe than sorry. 9 1/2 times out of 10 a live band vocal is never above the band (like on a record), so one might be shooting themselves and the band presentation in the foot by just filling it up.
In Texas the vocals were always out front and Rick Price etc were mixed just in the right volume even though they played a lot.
SOUND MEN CAN MAKE YOU OR BREAK YOU. It can change the way you SHOULD play. Just saying
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Phone: 971-219-8533 |
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Jack Aldrich
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 1 Apr 2018 6:21 pm
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As I was learning to play Hawaiian steel guitar, I was admonished to "play in the pukas". Puka means hole in Hawaiian. Hawaiians are much more adamant about NOT playing while the singer is singing. I've found that country singers are much more forgiving. My fill will start as the singer sings the last few words of a line and stop as the singer sings the first few words of the next line.
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Jack Aldrich
Carter & ShoBud D10's
D8 & T8 Stringmaster
Rickenbacher B6
3 Resonator guitars
Asher Alan Akaka Special SN 6
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 1 Apr 2018 6:54 pm
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A musical instrument....when it speaks it needs to speak alone like in a conversation, so does a vocal line for the most part? Two people talking at the same time becomes cluttered, I mean have you ever tried to talk to 2 people at the same time? Have you ever tried to talk to somebody while they’re on the phone to somebody else??? It’s annoying and confusing and cluttered. Clean it up, unclutter the conversation, make it clear, and precise, pleasing and emotional for the listener, lots of space and breathing is essential I think in a good mix. There’s nothing worse than the sound of an instrument in the background going off like a machine gun all over the vocals, a constant sawing violin is another pet peeve a bit like guitar, rant over!
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Posted 2 Apr 2018 6:36 am
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When I got my first studio gigs on Pedal steel in the 1970's, the producer used phrases like "we need a hook here" "lay out until the chorus" "don't step on the vocal" "just play fills" I was LOST... It was like a foreign language to me. I was used to just playing all the chords in the song and taking the solo/intro/ending... it seemed to work when playing live.
I didn't think I should ever stop playing and let another instrument carry the chords!
Then when I heard how much cleaner the mix sounded with some nice "space" I learned to only fill in the holes when needed.
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYG9cvwCPKuXpGofziPNieA/feed?activity_view=3 |
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Fish
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Posted 2 Apr 2018 9:21 am
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I gotta weigh in here.
Unless you have have a specific understanding with the singer, NEVER step on the vocals. Master the art of the great fill. You're having a dialogue with the singer. It's call and response; answer with a supportive fill, phrase or texture that responds to the lyrics and the singer's interpretation of those lyrics.
Listen to "Touch My Heart" by Ray Price. Buddy is responding to every word Ray Price sings; Grady Martin on guitar is not. Grady had an understanding with Ray and the producer beforehand.
There are many examples of recordings where musicians play underneath while the vocalist is singing ("You're For Me" by Buck Owens with Ralph Mooney comes to mind). This style of support can work, but it is very subtle and must be approved by the singer in advance. Otherwise, you could receive a "pink slip" from the producer or bandleader.
Rules may vary in certain states and on specific bandstands. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 2 Apr 2018 5:15 pm
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Well just like Steve(ooops sorry "Fish") said and something Lloyd told me long time ago. A Good Song is like a Great Conversation....meaning someone talks and you listen; then you talk..and so on; but you don't talk over someone; that's rude..ha... .
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2018 12:26 am
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Modern music, RADIO music, sounds incredibly cluttered to me. Whn you read about the studio "tricks" - find two ways to play the chords, then double-track each one, pan them hard left and right so you have FOUR rhythm guitar parts - no wonder my ears say "GAAAH" and run screaming from the room. There used to be an apparently laughable, outmoded idea that if a song was good, it could be played and sung by one person with an acoustic guitar and it would be appreciated as a good song. There are too many people trying to justify their existence, a producer -should- could be throwing AWAY all the unneeded parts not adding more.
I CAN see why, if you were trying to disguise a crap song as being something good or needed or profound and important, and you got stuck producing yet another earnest lonesome cowboy with his truck and his git-tar and his randomized gurl on a Friday night we gonna party our troubles away, oh yeah (insert randomized banjo lick) well sure you're going to pile everything imaginable onto the song. At least we'll all know that the producer was really producing the heck out of that production. Dog Bless Pro Tools too, because you can have 128 tracks or 256 tracks just as easy as those poor ol' cavemen struggling away recording so-called "classic" songs with only 8 tracks!
No wonder music used to sound so bad, it was all FULL of those holes just begging to be filled. In all the comments above, there is an assumption that the steel player doesn't even know the singer much less be a band "member" or have anything to do with the arrangements of the songs? It's the Clint Eastwood role, the tall dark stranger rides in from the prairie, shoots all the bad guys, saves the widow's farm from foreclosure and rides off into the sunset leaving all the shopgirls pregnant and the young boys with a hero to look up to... where do you find all these gigs, where you don't know anybody and you're not allowed to talk to them? Much less, have "arrangements" where people know their place even prior to playing these songs? |
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Posted 3 Apr 2018 6:10 am
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David: Modern music sounds cluttered to me as well as cookie cutter same 4 chords, over processed guitars/vocals/drums etc. Sadly there are few if any "holes" to play in for pedal steel.
I sometimes get to do local studio overdubs and remote interweb steel tracks for some "better" country music.
I for my 2cents was talking about the old days when a good hit song was recorded to sound like a live 4 or 5 piece band (guitars/bass/drums/steel/vocal) maybe piano... That was when The pedal steel was the sweetest fill instrument ever invented, and playing in the holes provided the "call and response" that made so many Classic Country/pop songs big hits.
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYG9cvwCPKuXpGofziPNieA/feed?activity_view=3 |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 3 Apr 2018 6:55 am
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I've heard plenty of old songs, cut in the good old fashioned way before technology
that were cluttered all to hell & back. That sort of thing has been going on for a long time. Don't blame ProTools... blame the people.
It may be the producer's fault, or the band's, or the singer's... but it's not the machine's doing.
And... Fish speaks wisely... as always. |
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Tim Herman
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 10:39 am
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| Not to mention that if you use your vocabulary sparingly, you don't run out of things to say by the middle of the first set. |
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Roger Childress
From:
South Carolina, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 3:54 pm
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| I wish I could remember who gave me this quote about playing around and behind a vocalist. “Don’t play while I’m singing and I won’t sing while you’re playing.†I really believe it’s a point counterpoint relationship. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 11:49 pm
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The first verse of a song is about setting the mood with lyrics, melody, and groove. There is a time to fill and there is a time to just leave the dang holes.
I read somewhere that when Hey Jude was being tracked, George started playing fills after every line. Paul had to tell him to back off. As much as I would like to hear what those fills were, it was probably the right decision to leave them out and just let the song sink in and tell the story. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 8 Apr 2018 12:12 pm
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| Roger Childress wrote: |
| I wish I could remember who gave me this quote about playing around and behind a vocalist. “Don’t play while I’m singing and I won’t sing while you’re playing.†I really believe it’s a point counterpoint relationship. |
I got hired by a local band leader, who played bass, and sang fronting the band. Very traditional and standard country music for the late 70's, early 80's. Easy stuff!
I played back up and took some leads, all went well until I started to hear a whistling during my lead work. Couldn't figure it out and it was quite annoying. After a couple of times, I looked over at him and HE was whistling into the mic while I was playing. On the break I asked him why and he said, " it's what I do ". So... guess what? I played all over his singing, fast, slow, it didn't matter. He was pissd and asked me why. I told him, well, you're whistling over me so I'm playing over you. I worked the night, got paid and never went back even though he kept calling me.
Some people never know when to lay out or when to play. Time and experience can't teach you if you don't want to learn. |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Indiana, USA
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Posted 9 Apr 2018 7:38 am
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Big rule for me:
Know when to shut-up.
The longer I play, years-wise, the more it becomes plain to me: Less playing is better. Oh sure, a hot lick is great fun. But more often, a simple AB-pedal-squeezed lick with good tone is what helps the song and makes a listener smile. |
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Dan Chambers
From:
Iowa, USA
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Posted 9 Apr 2018 1:21 pm Playing with a vocalist
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I always tell my students my guiding principle when it comes to ensemble work with a vocalist. Always remember, Pedal Steel Guitar is icing, not cake!
_________________
Justice Pro Lite 3x5. Emmons D10 PP 8x5, Peavey Session & Nashville 400s,Martin D-28, Taylor 510, Eastman E20P, Weber Gallatin Mandolin, OMI D40 squareneck Dobro |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 9 Apr 2018 2:29 pm
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Don't remember where I first heard it, or who from, but my favorite quote on this subject has always been...
"Musician, edit thyself". |
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Tommy Detamore
From:
Floresville, Texas
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Posted 10 Apr 2018 4:04 am
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Years ago I was fortunate enough to play some dates with the great Ray Price. At one show while I was standing backstage waiting to go on, Blondie, Ray’s bandleader, walked up to me and said, “Hey Tommy, the old man wants to talk to youâ€. So he takes me back to where Ray was standing, and Ray said:
“Now son, this is nothin’ against your playing. You play fine. But when I’m singing I want you to be able to hear my voice over the top of whatever you’re doing. And then when it’s your turn, well, just go!â€
I will always cherish these words of wisdom from The Chief. 
_________________
Tommy Detamore
Quilter Labs, Goodrich Sound, Source Audio, Neunaber Audio, and Stringjoy Authorized Dealer
www.cherryridgestudio.com
www.steelguitartracksonline.com |
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Ned McIntosh
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 10 Apr 2018 10:08 pm
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The leader of the band I play steel in is a classicly-trained musician. Many a time he has told instrumentalists and aspiring young-gun guitarists to remember the importance of knowing when to "play the rests".
On steel I play a lot of rests. Actually, on a note-for-note basis, I am the highest paid member of the band because I play the least. You have to let the music have "breathing-room".
Play the rests - all of 'em.
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The steel guitar is a hard mistress. She will obsess you, bemuse and bewitch you. She will dash your hopes on what seems to be whim, only to tease you into renewing the relationship once more so she can do it to you all over again...and yet, if you somehow manage to touch her in that certain magic way, she will yield up a sound which has so much soul, raw emotion and heartfelt depth to it that she will pierce you to the very core of your being. |
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Bryan Daste
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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