Message from b0b - Please read

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I'd normally post this in the "Feedback" section, but not too many people read that. A long-time member recently asked me to delete his membership. I asked why, and got this response:

Mitch Drumm · From: Frostbite Falls, hard by Veronica Lake

Patrick Ickes · From: Upper Lake, CA USA

I see extreme 'boredom on the forum' coming soon!
Delete his membership and move on.
There's 16,999 of us who don't really care.
Besides, where else can a Newbee play on line puzzles instead of practicing string grips???
Hmmmmm???

Patrick

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I actually agree with the members comments...with a "BUT"

To me, I find it more annoying when an assumed new player asks a question, be it music , recording or instrument related, several respond with detailed well thought out reply's. Polite and to the point.

Then you never hear from the original poster ever again.

Whats up with that ?

To me thats even more of an insult than the opposite scenario. Members with excellent intentions are left out in the cold.

While I do have full compassion and respect for those asking questions, I try to answer if I am able . Many times the exact same topics have been discussed a million times and perhaps a simple search may point the op in the right direction.

Maybe a STICKY could be of value, or a few.

Be it strings, how to tune the E levers, why do we even have the E Levers , how to lube the changer , my amp doesn't have enough headroom , which DAW is easiest to use etc... It seems to me that we have repeated dialog about a select handful of topics and we keep repeating them like a Hamster in a Cage !

I'm not defending those who reply with Satire, but maybe they are saying to themselves, "didn't I just reply to this exact same question yesterday from another member" ?

We have a few very nice sticky's...Imagine if we had a brand new "how do I tune my Push Pull" thread each time someone bought one ? Bob would have to change the name of the FORUM !

Just throwin' it out there.

But this is the internet, and its' to be expected ,all the scenario's.

This is not the only forum with these types of issues, with several thousand members it's gonna happen.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

It may be a sign of the times - my children's generation don't necessarily acknowledge all messages as mine does.

It could be that the questioner has read the detailed response and thought "Wow that's really helpful" but only thought it and not said so. We live in a time when it's physically impossible to reply to the entire barrage of stuff that hits us and most internet advice has not been specially composed for us.

Not excusing the subject of the original complaint. Courtesy and forethought seem to be out of the reach of some.
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Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I've seen cases of newbies get frustrated because they don't want to hear what we are telling them. Its good and right on advice but they don't want that "good" advice.

There is one recent forum member and new to Pedal Steel that I can think of that fits that category.
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Doug Cassell · From: San Antonio Texas, USA

Much of it is interpretation. With this medium, you can't hear the tone of voice, see the look in someone's eyes, etc. All you can do is read the words, and interpret them.

As a newbie, I have not experienced anything negative on this site. I have, however, seen certain individuals become offended quite easily and interpret what appears to me as helpful advice, as some kind of put-down or attack. I think it's "reading into" what has been said, or hearing it in a way that it was not intended that is many times the culprit.

Jeff Garden · From: Center Sandwich, New Hampshire, USA

A recommendation on the Membership Agreement page encouraging use of the Search function might help ensure a smooth transition for new members.

Rick Myrland · From: New Orleans

Jeffâ€™s point is a good one. We see the same questions posted time and time again without any apparent effort by the poster to seek out the information through a common sense search. The search engine aspect of the site I use more than any other and I post a question only when I cannot find the answer or my situation seems unique. While the member who reached out to bOb makes valid observations new members should also try to be more resourceful. As usual, thereâ€™s blame on both sides of the isle.
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Al Evans · From: Austin, Texas, USA

I'm pretty much a newbie here, since I only got my first pedal steel less than three months ago (and I STILL can't play like anybody famous! Smile

) But I've had no problem getting the information I need. I've been on the internet for a long time, and I am very used to having to distinguish truth from misinformation. And I think b0b does a tasteful job of moderating.

For what it's worth....

--Al Evans
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Don R Brown · From: Rochester, New York, USA

I agree with the need for civility and understanding. I also agree some folks lack basic skills such as using search, and posting a follow-up "thank you" when a question is answered. I've only been here 6 years, and have probably seen some questions asked 10 or 15 times.

And lastly, - and this is not meant specifically for the individual who b0b mentions but rather for all of us in general - a big buzzword these days is "offended". Guess what - it's called "life". I get offended about a dozen times a day, but I was raised that not everything goes my way, not everybody is nice, and not everybody agrees with what I believe in. Once in a while I'll growl back, but for the most part I TRY to shrug it off and go on with the positive parts of my life - which are many.

I don't want the forum to be a free-for-all of venom, but I also do not want it to be a place where the slightest disagreement or pointed remark brings down the wrath from above, either.
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Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

User had forgotten Sturgeon's Law.

Rick Abbott · From: Indiana, USA

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Bill Moran · From: Virginia, USA

I wish I had the Forum when I was learning. Lots of mistakes I made could of been put to rest.
I have been guilty of making light or cracking a joke on someones thread. No harm was ever meant but probably could of been received as such.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Brooks Montgomery · From: Idaho, USA

I've mentioned it here before: I am blown away at the resources available on this site. I have had so many very considerate responses. I have, I'm sure, had 'eye rolls' from the veterans here from some of my questions, but they chose not to post them.

Funny thing about internet forums, whether they be steel guitar, fishing, hunting, cars, banjos: it always amazes me at the power of tone, CAPS, insinuation (meant or accidental); people can really get worked up, feelings hurt, offended, over something typed haphazardly in 30 seconds by some stranger a world away. It's as if that person walked up to you and threw his shoe at you. He didn't. He probably was over-caffeinated, or just a bit naive about "sticks and stones can break my bones, but forum quips can kill me." Rolling Eyes

Before we had the internet and internet forums, we had letters-to-the-editor to air our opinions, advice, and disagreements. My all time favorite was the written/verbal war between Jack O'connor and Elmer Keith (from my town), fighting for years over the fast shooting .270 vs. the heavy-hitting .33 caliber (and up) rifle rounds. It was 'game-on' between those two, they had great disdain for each other,and it made for GREAT reading (Guns and Ammo).

As far as some of you forum veterans being annoyed by newbies asking questions that they can find by using the search section: they didn't throw a shoe at you. You can skim read, moving on to something that is more interesting for you to read (see. . there goes that tone thing).

Probably most everything can be found in the search function, but this is a social thing. It's a forum.
I love it here.
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Bobby Nelson · From: North Carolina, USA

Being new to the forum and PSG myself (I've been at it and on the forum since about last April), I've tried to be respectful of the vets and their knowledge. I also try to reply whenever someone answers to a post of mine. Unlike anything else I've ever done, Veteran PSG players from all walks and levels, seem very willing to talk to just about anyone who seems legitimately interested in their advice - this is what I like most about this community.

On one occasion months ago, I kind of lashed out at someone who went all leftist, reading a PC viewpoint into a way a guy worded something into a response to a question of mine, and stated that that sort of thing is not why I'm here, and that I can get that almost anywhere else on the web. I had hoped that I hadn't been too strong in my rebuttal but, I haven't been back to that part of the index since.

One more thing for me: the search is sort of complicated, and time consuming - something I have very little of. There is a real possibility however, that I am just stupid haha. I will try harder the next time

Bill McCloskey · From: Nanuet, NY

re: search. I have found that using google search works better than the forum search, unless I'm trying to limit the search by a specific area. Example:

"eharp" site:steelguitarforum.com as a search brings up everything, including the archived site, that has the word eharp in it.

Using the forum software, I'd type "eharp" and limit the search by Steels for Sale, if I was looking for to see if eharps have sold on the forum or not.

Regarding b0b's post, personally I think things are much more polite than they were when I first joined. there were some real knife fights 15 years ago and some folks personal reputations were sullied. The forum used to have some really strong personalities, many of whom are no longer with us.

But I have to admit, I spend most of my time in non-pedlars section and there is, in my experience, less discord with lap steelers.
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Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

I believe that overall, the SGF is one of the very best music forums on the Web, and that is due in large part to b0b and the other excellent SGF moderators, and b0bâ€™s excellent Forum rules and guidanceâ€”he is a model of patience and kindness.

I was on a banjo forum for several years that had virtually no rules, some terrible moderators, and a handful of trolls who were allowed to freely insult and defame the few of us who were trying to help newbies. Iâ€™m sure the banjo forum website owner actually loved the daily flame wars because it raised his click-to-view rate, increasing his profits from advertisersâ€”for example, he had a section devoted to politics that was extremely uncivil!
Fortunately for us, b0b is nothing like that guy, and as a result, compared to what I experienced there, the SGF is a model of deportment and civility--congratulations to all!!

I believe that much of the problem here is due to miscommunicationâ€”in the words of Cool Hand Lukeâ€”â€œWhat weâ€™ve got here is a failure to communicate.â€ Very Happy

Hereâ€™s my suggestion: Post a sticky named something like: â€œUseful tips for Forum newbiesâ€”Please read before postingâ€ with tips like these:
- SHOW SOME APPRECIATION: Most SGF members are very helpful, but itâ€™s a two-way streetâ€”if they try and help you out, post a â€œthanksâ€ to them.
- DO A SEARCH BEFORE POSTING A QUESTION: Even the most polite SGF members get a bit exasperated with questions that have been asked and answered many times before, so do everyone a favor and use one of the two search functions before posting a basic question. The Search functions are located in the right-hand side of the gray area just below the top toolbar, and they are very easy to use. When you ask a question, if you mention that youâ€™ve already searched for the answer, it will be much appreciated by the other SGF members.
- TURN OFF YOUR â€œOFFENSE DETECTORâ€: If you are asking experienced players for their help, many of whom are top-notch professionals, keep in mind that many are busy people and their answers may be short and to the point and may sound terse. Try to leave your â€œoffenseâ€ detector turned â€œoffâ€, and if you didnâ€™t understand the answer, thank them for their reply and ask politely for clarification.
- IT AINâ€™T EASY: The pedal steel guitar is much more difficult to learn than most other instruments, and many questions have no simple answers. (If you want simple, get a kazoo. Very Happy

)

Iâ€™m sure other members can add other useful tips for newbies to the sticky.

-Dave

p.s. Is the â€œkazooâ€ line too snarky? Very Happy

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I'm making a detailed reply because b0b has put this front-and-center and I think it merits a serious analysis.

Even though "jacksss" is not sharply delineable, I think it's reasonable to expect people to, mostly, not be jackasses. Much like the Supreme Court decided about pornography, paraphrasing: "I may not be able to precisely define it, but I know it when I see it." So it's gonna have to be a "fuzzy" [1] jackass detector, but I think the mods here are capable of detecting a true, unrepentent jackass. And luckily, there are very few here, IMO.

But I think it's also asking too much for this, or any other public forum, to be a "safe zone", where we expect that we will never offend anybody. The problem is that it's a worldwide and seriously multicultural group, many of whose members have very different standards for everything. As already pointed out, communication by written text is missing sometimes critical context information - vocal inflections, smiles, frowns, shared culture markers, and so on. And consider that not everyone here even speaks, literally, the same language; so outright misinterpretation occurs periodically. The upshot is that if you're extremely sensitive, you're likely to be offended.

I think the vast majority of experienced hands on this forum are really trying to be helpful to both new and more experienced players about what works to learn and get better at this instrument. But even well-meaning people sometimes have very different ideas about what is "helpful". Some try to go along with new players to a point and very gingerly and diplomatically try to point out possible discrepencies about various aspects of steel guitar and how to play it. Others state things more bluntly. I personally find the latter more useful to me. I found it hard, at first, to shake off many misconceptions I had about playing this contraption, and too gentle a touch wasn't gonna convince me. So I don't think we should run these experienced hands off simply because some others can't handle the candor. And I think we've already done that to a significant extent.

As far as a section for new players that only certain people can post to - I think it's totally unworkable. It's been proposed before and rejected because there's no reasonable way to decide who is "qualified" to comment, nor a reasonable way to enforce it. Especially since a stated part of the criterion is that the poster must not only be competent, but also be certain to be inoffensive. It's asking far too much of a forum like this.

The lack of willingness to search the (as of today) 2,658,594 articles on this forum for answers is indeed a problem. Many forums have stickies reminding people to look for already existing topics and add to them, rather than start a new one every week or two, and sometimes it's that bad here. Yes, the forum's search function is bad. But the most basic google search with the additional search term site:steelguitarforum.com or site:bb.steelguitarforum.com at brings up at least a few reasonable discussions about practically anything anybody would want to know about steel guitar. It is emphatically not unreasonable to suggest making a search. I often will make a search to start people off, but the old line "Give 'em a fish, feed 'em today; give 'em a fishing pole, feed 'em forever." is totally appropriate.

Oh, and obviously I agree with Earnest B. on Sturgeon's Law.

So while I understand the member's point, I think he or she is off the mark.

[1] Fuzzy in the sense of Lotfi Zadeh's concept of fuzzy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotfi_A._Zadeh

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