U12 Ideas

David Doggett · Posted 16 May 2005 12:28 pm

David D., I think you will want to try putting the A,B and F changes on the lower string octaves. A low C# (string 12) on the A pedal is especially useful as the low root of the minor chord with the A pedal. These low string changes are not so important for E9 country lead, but they really open up the low strings for the E9 mode in blues, rock, jazz and classical. On your 14-string you have a lot of really low strings down there. What guages are you using and where do you get them? Bill Stafford also plays a 14-string uni, but compared to a 12-string, he only has one extra low string, and puts the other extra string on top.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

DD, interesting take.
I have not gotten delivery yet.
I need to move house, and Jim Palenscar is nicely holding the steel for me, till I get resettled.

This is how it is set up now.
Not sure till I get it in my hands the final copedent,
also I will be needing some parts to add changes. It is an old Sierra so parts will be problematic.
Still good machine shops down there are REALLY cheap...

But this is good food for thought.

I want the C6 equivalent of D and G on top
so for B6 a 9th and 5th F# and B
So I may go Bill's route.
No clue where to get those low strings...

I sure wish there was one more pedal.

I see this baby as a test bed for Uni type set ups.
till I hone in on a long term one.
I really loved David Wright's MIillenium at ISGC.
But don't have the parts for this one to duplicate it.

It will also be my studio machine for trips to Bangkok for sessions when I am used to it.
A lot easier tomove than a Bud D-10.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 May 2005 at 02:06 PM.]

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

What are some things that can be done with the 7th str F# - G#? Is it used in combo?

What about the 6th str G# down to F#? One of BE's infamous moves, right?

These two changes have been tossed around a lot and I still don't know much about them.

My U-12 is 8x5 right now, and my LKV is dropping 3 and 6 [G#'s] to G.

But I'm more interested in changing this to either of the 1st 2 moves mentioned above.
Would like to know more about what they do, or can do. Quickly, I can see some unison stuff here.

What else?

Chip

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

David,
The two strings on top are already there, assuming, like most uni players today, you lower the 2nd string to C# with your E's lowering to D#. The equivalent of the high G is on the 1st string (F# in B6) and the D is on the 2nd string (C# in B6).

Not sure what you're referring to with the low strings, but anything is possible.

One thing I'll mention is that any string lower than the low B will be like a transatlantic cable. I use a 079 on the bottom for B, so the low G# and E will be essentially bass guitar strings. Unless your roller nuts are gauged you will find a big gap under your bar. This is exactly the reason I never went with more than 12 strings. I know Bill Stafford has been playing the 14 string E9/B6 for many years and has mastered these little technical details, but I thought I'd mention that those monster strings on the bottom can play you a double bass concerto while you're playing the upper strings unless you are careful.

Just a couple of thoughts.

If I played a 14 string I would consider putting a C# out of order, like a chromatic string, in slot 14, with a G# on 13. So the open tuning would be (high to low)
F# D# G# E B G# F# E B G# E B G# C#
and the 13th would be the lowest string

Once you get used to skipping over the last two strings, all the grips are the same as C6 and you have the C# (equivalent to the D that Terry Crisp, Buddy Emmons, and others have been using on C6 on the 7th string for years) and would raise it to D, giving you the dominant 7 for E9 -- the missing E9 string many complain about as a reason for not using a universal tuning. Having it out of order like that may seem a mite quirky, but, once you get used to it, it would be like chromatic strings on E9 -- easy to incorporate into faster scaley things.
(wonder where I can find a 14 string guitar)
(NAAAAH!)

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 16 May 2005 at 07:06 PM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Having the 2 bottom strings of your S14U to play with (or omit) is kinda cool.
You could just take them off and have a standard S12U.
Or you could experiment with some high pitch strings on the bottom end positions (ala non-pedal tunings of Herb Remington or Leon McAuliffe), being that you don't have any raise/lower hardware for those strings (at least not yet if I read correctly).
One thing I wouldn't want to do, is to completely de-rod and re-rod that baby.

David Doggett · Posted 16 May 2005 7:33 pm

Bill Stafford has something like a 0.090 gauge on the bottom that he has custom made somewhere. I'm sure if you e-mail him (he's a Forum member) he will discuss it with you. I believe his Excel has gauged rollers - it is a gorgeous piece of work and I can't imagine it not having that kind of precision work. It is difficult to get ultra low strings to do much more than thud, but he does it somehow. Ed Packard also has experience with that.

Chip, the most obvious use of the F# raise to G is to give a 7th with the A and B pedals down. This is a real necessity in rock, blues and jazz. Holding the A and B pedals, the G vertical lever and the D lever gives a pentatonic rock-blues run by alternately picking strings 3, 1, 4, 2, 5.

Some other things you get with the G and G# are:

In the open pedal position, you get a flatted 3rd or a unison major 3rd.

In the A,B pedal position you get a major 7th (G#) - useful in jazz.

In the A pedal minor position you get a flatted 5th or a unison 5th - both very useful for minor blues/jazz.

In the E-lower lever minor position you get a minor major 7th chord (the film noir chord).

For general use, when combined with the pedals and other levers, the G and G# complete a chromatic run from string 9 up to string 6, or from 5 up to 3. These chromatic stretchs are centered on the E roots on strings 8 and 4, which is useful for all kinds of melody work and unusual chords.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 17 May 2005 at 10:11 PM.]

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

Thanks David. How could I have missed the A+B
Dom7th? Doh.

Sometimes the best way to hide something is to put it right in front of someone.

With your info, I think I'll change that LKV
to F# to G. And with, say strings 4,5,7, you still can go from an open major to it's minor [I minor?]

This sounds good.

Thanks again, David.

cf

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I checked out Bill Stafford's Excel 14-string guitar a couple of months ago. He was using a .120W on #14. I think it was tuned to a low E. Bill's the master of the 14 string and a super nice person also. One change I didn't notice in the listings was on strings 5 & 9 on the U-12's. I may have just overlooked it. I played a U-12 for the past year. Very simple once you figure out the switch from E9th to B6th. Anyway, here's what I was talking about: LKV- lowers 5 & 9 to a B flat (E9th mode) while holding LKV press pedal #2. By backing up two frets this makes a real pretty chord for blues,swing or even rock.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Billy (and also David)
I notice that in David's copedent he also lowers BOTH B's (5 and 9) to A#. True, this is a standard E9 change, BUT, if you want the most common knee lever function on C6 (C to B on the 3rd string on C6), only the 5th (equiv of string 3 on C6) should be lowered. There are several open, pedal, and lever combinations on C6 that use the dissonance of both the open C and B notes and most consider that change to be very important.

Worth considering.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

David Doggett · Posted 17 May 2005 6:27 am

Larry raises an interesting point. Here is Buddy Emmons classic C6 copedant:

		LKL	LKR						RKL	RKR


				4	5	6	7	8		


1	D							Eb		


2	E					F				


3	C						D		B	Db


4	A	Ab	Bb	B			B			


5	G				Gb					


6	E					Eb				


7	C							Db		Db


8	A			B						


9	F				Gb			E		


10	C				D			A

The main thing I notice is that he has bracketed his 4th string A and 3rd string C with knee levers. His left knee can take the A down or up a half step by logically going left or right. And his right knee can take the C up or down a half step by going left or right. Therefore he has a very logically placed, easy to use chromatic stretch from G (the 5th) up to D (the 9th), which can actually go even further in both directions using pedals. This is a marvelously natural arrangement. I worry that there is no way to get that on a universal. Even if you add a center cluster for B6, the right knees are taken up with the E lower lever and an essential E9 lever. This is to some extent compensated because adding the B6 stuff and lower strings adds so much to E9. but I can see how a veteran C6 player would be frustrated. Of course you could set things up exactly like Buddy's C6, but you would have to give up some essential E9 stuff. You can't have everything. That is why I tend to look on the universal as a third tuning, not an exact duplication of everything E9 adn C6.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

The nice thing about having both B's to Bb is that you can either use 'em both, or back off the string 9 tuner and only use string 5.
FWIW, I have all three B's lowering to Bb on my steel.

S12U not an exact duplication of everything E9 and C6?
The Horror!

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Well seeing as I am more a C6'r than E9'r
I will be looking at how I might make it harmonically the most powerfull.

I do use the minors in both open and AB down position, and find those chords essential.
If you do very minorish russian flavored things,
the basic E9 is problematic.

I do do some counbtry stuff, but don't need to reproduce exact classic licks all the time either.

I have been blending E9 onto C6 and visa versa, so To do it on one large neck seems practicable.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 17 May 2005 at 12:14 PM.]

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

I don't know how the rest of you guys are built, but I can apply more pressure with my right leg by pushing to the right than to the left.
That is why I have to agree with Jerry Hayes on the ergonomic issue of lowering the Es with the RKR. Jeff did not use a B6 lock and held the RKR while playing B6. The guitar I own was previously owned by Jeff and set up for him. I like it that way....JD

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

David,
Do you know if you have tune-able splits on the B>Bb's?
That will significantly increase the vocabulary of the B>Bb change.
No extra bell cranks needed, just rod assemblies.

Jim Dempsey · From: Belmar, New Jersey, USA

Thanks for the great ideas on choosing the right U12 copedant.I went and rerodded my Dekley to Jerry Hayes's chart.I would prefer my E raises/lowers on the right.The only problem now is getting my B to lower to G# on my 12th string,it keeps popping off the nylon tuner when I tune it down.It's probably something simple,but could use some help.--Thanks,Jim

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Pete, I am not sure, but I don't think so.
I would definitly use that bV change.

Even if it is there from 5+6

What I miss most is not lowering the 3rds in open position.

Dan Burnham · From: Greenfield, Tennessee

Simple,
Zane Beck's Tuning

"Now understand this is not the most popular tuning but after playing it for nearly 2 months I've found this tuning has all of the features the others have. You will find the tuning on the website here.

For E9 Playing Here it is:
RKL and Pedals 2+3 = Emmons 1,2 floor
RKL and Pedals 3+4 = Emmons 2,3 floor

For C6 Playing Here you go:
LKL that's it.

This will get you started in doing ZB Tuning.

A kind suggestion

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Dan, I had 3 tunings to try on this S-14 over time,
after getting used to normal uni, or at least what's on it now..

Zane's,
Reece's Bb6
And Ed Packards monster tuning, which may take another instrument.

I am looking for the most power and musical logic in the smallest package.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

David- I agree with you on a small package with lots of power. "Lean and Mean" I call it...al

------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Al, yes I find your tuning very interesting also.
Why not post it again here, If you would be so kind.

David Doggett · Posted 23 May 2005 8:32 am

Yeah, lean and mean is the uni philosophy. Yes, you can always put something on a C6 for jazz and swing, or E9 for country, or E7 for blues, that you cannot put on a uni. But if you don't want to carry around three necks, and you want to be able to play any kind of music on a single versatile neck, some kind of universal is the way to go. D. Donald, if you are more interested in jazz and 6th neck stuff, you might like Reece's Bb6/Eb9. As I understand it, this tuning plays in Bb6 normally, and you have to activate something to get the Eb9 mode. That is the opposite of a typical B6/E9 uni, but it may be more to your purposes.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Exactly,
That's why it is on my list aboce.
I spent 20 minutes at ISGC playing David Wright's Bb6 and loved it.

The Sierra is set up like the abocve now, and after I explor that it will then be a test bed for many other things. Bb6 being one of the main tests.
And a likely keeper.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Well I have the Sierra S-14 in hand,
and now am really finding this thread interesting.DD

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

For what it is worth, here is the BEAST's setup for the 30" neck. I have split the chart into two parts; = C69 (LIKE E9) AND G6 (LIKE B6)so that the page width is reasonable.



 		L<	L^	L>,LK	P1	P2	P3	P4	P10	R<	R>


		 									


1	A										A#-Bb


2	E					F		D#-Eb			


3	D		D#-Eb								


4	C	C#-Db		B					C#-Db		


5	G				A		A			F#-Gb	


6	E					F	F		F#-Gb		


7	D		D#-Eb								


8	C	C#-Db		B			B				A#-Bb


9	G				A					F#-Gb	


10	E					F		D#-Eb			


11	C	C#-Db							C#-Db		


12	A									G#-Ab	A#-Bb


13	G					F	F		G#-Ab		


14	C								C#-Db		


											


											


 		L>,LK	L2<	L2>	P5	P6	P7	P8	P9	R<	R>


											


1	A										A#-Bb


2	E					D#-Eb		F			


3	D										


4	C	B					C#-Db				


5	G		A							F#-Gb	


6	E		F#-Gb		F#-Gb			F			


7	D			D#-Eb		C#-Db					


8	C	B					A#-Bb				A#-Bb


9	G								G#-Ab	F#-Gb	


10	E				F#-Gb			F			


11	C								B		


12	A								G#-Ab	G#-Ab	A#-Bb


13	G								E		


14	C								B

[This message was edited by ed packard on 20 September 2005 at 08:47 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Ed, always so much foods for thought!

Gonna try and transpose this to my scale length out of E,
and see how it fits.

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