Tuning: Some Examples

Franklin · Posted 26 Jul 2005 4:53 am

Larry,
Thanks for trying to clarify the differences. I personally don't beleive a test like this can prove anything either way.

When I listen to Emmon's Black album or anything by Jay Dee, Reece, Green, Hughey, Jernigan, Rugg, and pretty much every steel guitarist on every major recording since country has been around, I can hear why JI blends well with the band and in all these cases the steels are in tune with their surrounding instruments.

The ET method is rarely found on major records. I believe the reason is because the rules for orchestral arranging applies to all instruments for sounding in tune with a band.

Since the human ear has to be trained to accept the sound of the ET sharp thirds beating feverishly in its major triads, and the steel sits on the surface of the band track, as does vocals and strings, and because ALL of those musical/orchestral parts are performed as JI, it then becomes more important that the steel should be tuned to fit its sonic place in the band.

Most producers I know will not accept ET as sounding in tune and will ask us check our tuning when we present them an ET tuned triad. I know this because I have tried this in the studio.

Percussive instruments like the piano and guitar blend together sonically. Because the steel is more bell like with its intial attack, it does not blend with the percussive attack of those instruments the same way the voice, violins, and other non- percussive instruments don't blend with rhythm section instruments. This is why something closer to JI has been and still is the standard way a steel guitar is tuned for recordings.

A perfectly tuned instrument of any kind is an oxymoron.
None of the pro's tune strictly ET or JI. These are just starting points. They all adjust to the center of the bands pitch as which is always necessary. If a JI player wants to use all the positions of the ET tuning method they can do this by adding compensators to the F#'s and D strings. Therefor both tuning methods offer the same voicing possibilities.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 26 July 2005 at 05:59 AM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 26 July 2005 at 06:01 AM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 26 July 2005 at 06:04 AM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 26 July 2005 at 06:10 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Hey, Rick
You must by psychotic, dude.

You're right on BOTH counts. Plain sixth AND ceiling fan. (although I recorded direct so doubt that you actually HEARD the ceiling fan -- in south Florida it's hard to do without them)

I would love to use a wound sixth, but my sixth string goes up and down like crazy. At minimum, my 'B6 side' takes me from G# to A# and G# to F# is a change I can't hardly do without. Sometimes I lower G# to E and you'd never do that on a wound sixth. It was a new string, so that's about the best a 020p can sound, I guess. The harder you hit it the sharper it goes -- you can see it on the meter. I loved it when I used a wound sixth, but just couldn't get the changes I needed to have.

Interesting that you, Capt b0b, and I all tune to pretty much the same offsets. I always had you pegged as a 'tune by harmonics / by ear straight JI guy'.

And, as always, thanks, Paul, for your unique perspective. I've admired your playing for three decades or so and hope to continue hearing your playing and your ideas for many more to come.

I'll say it again: there are many ways to tune a pedal steel guitar. There's only one way to play it in tune: with your EARS.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

quote:
A perfectly tuned instrument of any kind is an oxymoron.
None of the pro's tune strictly ET or JI. These are just starting points. They all adjust to the center of the bands pitch as which is always necessary.

Thank you, Paul.

Really looking forward to seeing the Dire Straits video.

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

Paul, you were up late! However I couldn't agree more with you. I have had lengthy conversations with piano tuners who tune the pianos in the studios here. They say: "There is no such thing as being perfectly in tune." I've even heard from more than a few that they can't stand to hear any insturment tuned ET, even a piano. To them it sounds harsh and cold.

With a piano there are 2 to 3 strings for every note. Those strings are not tuned to a perfect unison. This is to produce "beats" that will "soften" the harshness of certan intervals. When you hit any key on a piano with the sustain pedal down, it will cause other strings to ring. Those multiple strings per note have to be "stretched" to blend in with the note that is ringing as an overtone. However, the multiple strings all ringing together produces a "summed" note. And that would read ET on a meter. But that is not the case with our insturment.

From the guitar players point of view, has anyone mentioned the adjustable bridge? Try adjusting your bridge to the perfect octave. Straight across like ours. Then tune ET and see if you like it.

If you want to try true ET, tune an acoustic piano straight up. All the multiple strings for every note. My ear could never get used to that. I've heard it. How you ask? Like Will Rogers said: "Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement."

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I tend to tweak my thirds a little bit sharp of just. Not because it sounds better, but because if it slips either way it won't sound out of tune. If JI thirds go any flatter, they sound just awful.

I call this method "fault tolerant tuning".

Paul, thanks for chiming in with your unique insights.

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

I should also mention I don't tune ET or JI. Like B0B and many others I tune my thirds and sixths sharp of JI, but flat of ET. As to the A and F lever in the open position? I don't do it. Anytime I use that combination I play a little sharp on the fret.

Yep, I must have had my time zones in ET. Here in Pulltight TN we are about 2hours and 20 minuites ahead of the west coast.

[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 26 July 2005 at 09:05 AM.]

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

But we're catching up to you, Randy.

Thanks for adding your perspective to this discussion.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

OK, Nobody's asked so I'll ask YOU

Which guitar was it?

2003 Fessy
late 70's Sho-Bud
late 60's push-pull

Here are the Bud's Bounce samples again, just for reference:
JI http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/buds_ji.mp3
ET http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/buds_et.mp3
"Tampered" http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/buds_tampered.mp3

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 26 July 2005 at 10:30 AM.]

Drew Howard · From: 48854

Larry,

Thanks for taking the time to post your tuning mp3's and analysis, they are much appreciated and in the true spirit of the forum.

thanks again,
Drew

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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden D-10 8/8, Fessenden SD-12 5/5 (Ext E9), Magnatone S-8, N400's, BOSS RV-3

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

I think the Sho-Bud.

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Most Certainly the "Sho-bud"(but I have heard a couple of Fessy's that sounded close to a Bud) as I tend to agree with Randy Beavers in Completely EVERYTHING...ha...He's my Hero.
Paul; your insight and direction to this is Always so welcome and "for lack of better word" INSIGHTFUL....
Larry; yes I am Psychotic in pretty much every way..

as I even hear the osculation of a ceiling fan; accoustically> I hate'um...>but I can certainly dig the Heat thing(I actually love Hot summer days..ha)
I can dig about the changes you like being able to move the 6th string as much as it needs to and yes; other than a Fulawka, you have to have a plain to do it> oh well.
But me personally; I can't stand the overtones/osculations of it being a plain moreso; that I will do without those moves and do them in another delivery; like 7th string raise or moving bar.
Larry; this has been a fun little thread here pal...I love your enthusiam to take something/idea and go with it and test it and bla bla; and I dug your bud's bounce playing man...way cool.

David Doggett · Posted 26 Jul 2005 12:14 pm

It sounds so much like BE that it could easily be the Emmons p/p. But it would be easiest to do all the retuning on the Fessy, and it could sound like an Emmons p/p on my computer speakers - so that's my best guess. On the other hand, the Emmons p/p has the richest overtones, and would best show the beats or lack thereof. And knowing you are an engineer, you may have persevered with the Emmons for just that reason. I can't think of any reason to use the Sho-Bud for this purpose, unless you were going to do it as a video, so we could see how pretty it is.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I think it was the Fessy.

Franklin · Posted 26 Jul 2005 1:11 pm

Randy,

Thanks for adding more great points to the thread.

To everyone,

Just because a player uses a version of JI should not equate to an assumption that the F lever in the third fret up position needs to be avoided. There is an easy solution for this inherent JI voicing problem. Have compensators put on the F#'s and D strings on the A & B pedals to nudge them back towards the tuning center. I borrowed that solution from Reece.

Personally, I hate the term JI to describe the mostly beatless tuning method steelers use on sessions. I certainly don't adhere to a perfect JI concept and I really don't know of any professional steel guitarist that does. All the way to JI or ET doesn't work for most producers ears.

Larry,
I'm puzzled by your programming session. I also do this alot and have never run into that particular scenario. IMO the toughest set of ears on this planet belong to Mutt Lange and on Shania's "Up" CD I had to add my steel to his completely programmed pop tracks for the Country versions and never had any problems.

Anyway, you are a brave man to subject your musicanship to the tuning test and I, among many, thank you for your contribution here.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 26 July 2005 at 02:14 PM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Well, Paul, the first time it happened, the keyboard was added after I laid down the steel part. That was really bad. There were several spots where I sounded in tune with the ensemble minus keys but when the synth and pno parts were added I was shocked how bad it sounded. Engineer played it back without the steel and it sounded fine. Don't know what else to tell you. I re-recorded the part and it was better but the term 'pitchy' came up often in the conversation. After that I tried ET -- for about a week -- and then started reading about 'meantone' temperament and decided to do what I do now, which works fine for me.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

By the way, Mr. Beavers and Mr. Davis win the cigar.

Great ears, guys.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

David Doggett · Posted 26 Jul 2005 2:11 pm

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

Hey Ricky, we can smoke 'em on the golf course.

And Larry, I liked your "tampered" tuning the best. It seems fairly close to what I use.

[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 26 July 2005 at 06:47 PM.]

Franklin · Posted 26 Jul 2005 6:42 pm

Larry,
That explains it. Because the steel guitar is a fretless instrument, every player in that situation would sound out no matter what tuning method they used. I'm sure you recorded to the center of the bands pitch and the same engineer probably gave you the thumbs up. He needs to learn that foundations have to be laid before the roof can go up. He changed the foundation after your work was done. Its no wonder there was tuning problems. The same conclusion would have happened if he had put strings on before the keyboards. Had you heard the keyboards along with everything else I doubt if you would have the same results.

I know its not best for work to call him on it, but I would have loved for you to ask him to mute the keyboard tracks to see if you sounded in tune with the rest of the band. I'll bet you did.

Paul

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Well Randy I have a 8am tee time> don't be late....ha....>oh shoot it's almost 2am already; just home from a gig...I better get to bed...nighty night.
OH and if anyone wants to guess why Larry choose to do that experiment with the Sho-bud????Well anyone????ha....I bet I know and I bet Larry doesn't even know or realize???ha...>you'da man Larry Bell.

Ricky

[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 26 July 2005 at 11:37 PM.]

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

Ricky, I know why he did it on a Sho-Bud. Why would you use anything else? Buds Bounce can only be cut on a Fender, Bigsby, ZB, or Sho-Bud. There are ethics involved here.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Thanks, PF
There's a little more to it than that, but you are correct and that was the conclusion we'd reached. I am more comfortable tuning as I do now with an electronic keyboard -- so all's well. Thanks for taking the time.

Charlie -- well put. b0b -- nice terminology. Think I'll stick with 'tampered' -- has a nice 'ring' to it.

I may have to take the cigar back, guys.

The REAL reason I used the Sho-Bud was that it is my newest guitar -- only had it a week or two -- and I hadn't heard it recorded before. I LIKE IT. It certainly goes into regular rotation with the Emmons and Fessy. ESPECIALLY after I take it by to be blessed by Father Coop in a few weeks.

Thanks guys. I've had fun (a few new gray hairs, but FUN). What a great group!

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

My last comments...

Thanks Paul, for participating in our little discourse!

When I listen to those players whom I consider as "great", only one thing is common with every one...almost everything they play is "beatless", or at least, so nearly so as to be unnoticeable.

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