Lessons Learned (recent bad buying experience)

Mark Helm · From: Tennessee, USA

Folks: I recently had an awful experience with a seller who failed to pack a guitar/case for shipping (yes, the once-gorgeous leather case showed up on my doorstep, absolutely trashed--no box!). Without going into all the gory details, it took me the better part of a week to convince the seller he had a responsibility to pay for the case and the damage to the guitar.

Here's what I learned:

1) Don't expect a member (even a long-time one) to behave like you would. For some folks, the right thing isn't immediately apparent (and some people are just bad actors). Protect yourself in advance.

2) Be careful about paying full price in advance for an instrument to a member you do not really know. Forum members have strongly suggested shying away from PayPal's "Friends and Family" option (which is how I paid this time, foolishly). I agree.

3) Don't assume anything. As others have suggested, get everything in writing, even how an instrument should be packed for shipping (if shipping is part of the deal, make sure you agree how much the instrument will be insured for. If the shipper doesn't want to pay the insurance, then get in writing that they will be responsible for any damage that occurs as a result of insufficient packaging).

Folks, I now see that part of this recent debacle was my fault. I paid a guy I did not know--if full--without having anything in writing besides a PM agreeing to the price, shipped. If I'd clearly spelled out my expectations in writing in advance, my week would probably have gone more smoothly.

So--lessons learned. I hope you can learn from my mistake.

Yours in steel....

*Note: Previous to this incident, I'd bought and sold many instruments on the Forum and ALWAYS walked away with a positive experience. The buyers/sellers I worked with were, to a person, kind, humble, friendly and helpful. I've even made some pretty darn good friends buying & selling. Maybe that's why I was so flabbergasted when I came across a seller whose attitude was the polar opposite of what I'd come to expect. Just goes to show ya (insert any umber of appropriate old adages).
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Remington Steelmaster S8 w/ custom Steeltronics pickup. Vox MV-50 amplifier + an 1940's Oahu cab w/ 8" American Vintage speaker. J. Mascis Fender Squire Jazzmaster, Hofner Club bass, Ibanez AVN4-VMS Artwood Vintage Series Concert Size Acoustic Guitar. 1920s/30s Supertone Hawaiian-themed parlor guitar. Silvertone parlor guitar.

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

This is why I try to communicate fully and it is why I use PayPal. At least you have some protection and an avenue for grievances.
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Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing.

Robert Murphy · From: West Virginia

The advice to buyers and sellers is very good. Please read. Agreement on ownership at the time of shipment and insurance is vital to recovery after damage.

Dave Diehl · From: Mechanicsville, MD, USA

I have bought quite a few guitars and other equipment from the Forum and eBay and actually never had a bad experience. Most times the items were packed very well. But Marks comments are true. The part however about paying half and then half upon arrival can be a double edge sword. What happens if the buyer doesn't fulfill his part of the agreement and the seller is stuck with little recourse to get their money. It is still a good recommendation to ask in the terms of the sale.

Bill McCloskey · From: Nanuet, NY

I've bought and sold a number of instruments on the forum, fortunately have had very few issues. There are definitely people who sell here regularly that I would never do business with and there are others that have set off red flags when I communicated with them so I decided not to do business with them. I think in general it is a good idea to reach out to the person by email or phone and get a sense of them and if anything seems funny, trust your gut. One guy I was talking with about buying one of his steels lived within driving distance of me. I asked to drive down to see him and see the steel in person and he refused. That set off major red flags.

the absolute worst problem I've ever had was a seller who refused to cash my check. Nearly 3 months after I had received the steel (and in fact had already sold the steel because I didn't like it) they still hadn't cashed my check. Turned out the seller had agoraphobia and couldn't leave the house to cash the check.
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Alex Johnson · From: Texas, USA

Once I bought a GFI Ultra D10, Peavey NV112, and a Pack a Seat from a fella and when UPS dropped it off the Steel was in a large size (yard) garbage bag, the NV112 was inside a kitchen sized garbage bag as well as the seat. Needless to say the amp was completely destroyed, luckily the guitar and seat were mostly ok (props to GFIs extremely good build quality & sturdy cases). Now hereâ€™s the kicker, I paid for shipping & insurance and the guy didnâ€™t insure it!!! You sent items worth over 3k packed inside a garbage bag and were too cheap to insure it??? When I paid for it no less!!! Ha sorry Iâ€™m gettin worked up about it all over again. Luckily I paid via PayPal, I filed a complaint and he was forced to take the stuff back and give me a full refund. I didnâ€™t even want the stuff after the awful experience....Some people just donâ€™t get it I guess.
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Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Avoid using PayPal "friends and family" when purchasing major items. You have no recourse from PayPal if the item is defective. PayPay friends and family is for sending money, not for purchasing items. If you use it to purchase an item, you have none of the fraud protection that PayPal offers to bail you out if the deal goes sour.

Art Beard · From: Once upon a time out west (deceased)

Mark, I am so so sorry that you had this experience.!. I have had a mix of luck, mostly good but with a few scares and 1 damage to steel. Ray Walker sent me the SD10 that I just sold. Shipper dropped it from high up as it broke the mounting braket off the Sho-Bud pickup, and cracked out the inlay on the front. Ray had me return the steel to him, He replaced the inlay, and the pickup with a Mullen pickup he had. It was a great playing steel. Shipper never paid him for work, even tho it when back immediately thru them to him. Second bad one was will my "Jimmy Day Sho-Bud Amp"., luck the guy shipping double boxed with 3/4 inch foam inbetween boxes. Came with box kicked in ! Broke thru outer box, foam, but didn't enter 2nd box. Amp had NO Damage!!
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"like an old stallion, lonely for freedom, still trying to out run the wind" Seals,Setser,& Davey.
GAS -1969 ZB D11/10,1974 Sho-Bud D10 Professional,1975 Speedy West S10, 150 yr okd Barn Board tele, Beard signature Gold Tone Dean Acoustic/Electric Bass, Tennessee 12 string Bass, 3 String Shovel.2 Fiddles., Sho-Bud amp, Epiphone valve special amp, Fishman loudbox artist amp.

Art Beard · From: Once upon a time out west (deceased)

I have over the last 3 month rec'd 22 instruments, most with just o.k. packaging. but 1 from Mfg er was poor.lucky no damage. Other from a dealer was in the case, but case didnt hold the steel firmly and I could hear it rattling on arrival. Lucky again, steel it self was o.k.
When I shipped the Ray Walker SD10 to Canada, I packed it so there was very little movement allowed inside the case. Padded everything I could, no rattling. I believe it arrived in great shape. Fedex boxed it, I had packaged the inside. As shippers , we must pack well,
CAA
Dishonest folks should get called out by name in the forum ! ! ! All I have had pleasure were honest people who only the 2 made packaging errors.
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"like an old stallion, lonely for freedom, still trying to out run the wind" Seals,Setser,& Davey.
GAS -1969 ZB D11/10,1974 Sho-Bud D10 Professional,1975 Speedy West S10, 150 yr okd Barn Board tele, Beard signature Gold Tone Dean Acoustic/Electric Bass, Tennessee 12 string Bass, 3 String Shovel.2 Fiddles., Sho-Bud amp, Epiphone valve special amp, Fishman loudbox artist amp.

Wayne Joseph · From: Oregon, USA

Dear friends ; I feel impelled to comment on this one. I tinker with buying and selling guitars for fun. I takes a lot of work to properly pack an amp or guitar for shipment. You have to assume it WILL be drop kicked out the back of a speeding truck. It usually takes about 1.5 hours to pack something properly. Usually a custom size box has to be MADE which requires measuring, cutting, gluing, ect. Most people are too lazy or don't have the skills or tools to do it right. So make sure it is insured. When in doubt, don't buy it.

Art Beard · From: Once upon a time out west (deceased)

1 steel guitar case broke in transit, steel o.k. Case needs inside rebuilt. 1972 case. Not shippers fault,fatigue i think, lol. Case 46 years old.
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"like an old stallion, lonely for freedom, still trying to out run the wind" Seals,Setser,& Davey.
GAS -1969 ZB D11/10,1974 Sho-Bud D10 Professional,1975 Speedy West S10, 150 yr okd Barn Board tele, Beard signature Gold Tone Dean Acoustic/Electric Bass, Tennessee 12 string Bass, 3 String Shovel.2 Fiddles., Sho-Bud amp, Epiphone valve special amp, Fishman loudbox artist amp.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I must point out that most disagreements in our Classified Ads can be resolved to both members' satisfaction. Mark rightfully did not call out the other member by name, and the issue was ultimately settled with a cash refund.

There are two sides to every story. Calling someone a crook publicly is usually counter-productive to resolving the issue. I have seen the "get a rope" mentality run rampant in some cases, and it's not pretty.
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Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

The shipping conundrum is an interesting topic. Some manufacturers ship a guitar in just the case with the handle accessible for the handlers to easily be able to move it and some put the guitar in the case and put the case in a separate box full of the dreaded Styrofoam peanuts and it has been my experience that damage can occur using both methods. IMHO regardless of the method employed it is critical that the guitar not move in the case. Because the item's dimensional weight is used to calculate shipping (as well as the true weight), it is less expensive to ship just the guitar in the case. I will frequently use a 3rd party shipper (in my case UPost) and they will use Styrofoam planks or peanuts and and insure it and the cost is about twice what it costs to ship it myself. That being said, in shipping several hundred guitars using that method, I have never once had a damage complaint whereas roughly 1/3 of all guitars shipped to me have some damage or are received not as described (a bit of a different issue).

Mark Helm · From: Tennessee, USA

Guys: Thanks for all empathy & shared stories, plus the great advice. It takes a lot of the sting out of my recent experience and I'm grateful to ya'll. So...

Now that I think on it, I'd have to agree with Dave; the 1/2 & 1/2 idea probably isn't a very good one. Best to work it all out clearly up front and avoid that double-edged sword.

Jim's account that some guitars are shipped by manufacturers only in their cases caught me a little off guard. I have never experienced this, but maybe some of you other cats have? Please let me know if this is a "thing," and if any of you would be OK with your guitar (new or otherwise) showing up on your doorstep au naturel, so to speak, without having be packed in a box. On the Reverb site, they have a terrific short video on how to properly prepare a guitar and pack it for shipping. Maybe we need our own video?

Much hanks to b0b, as well. He rightly notes that I deigned not to mention this Forum member by name. I'll get to my specific reasons why in a sec. And, while I agree that there are two sides to every story, I'll have to respectfully submit that those stories aren't always equally valid. Sometimes one of the stories doesn't quite pass the small test, and sometimes pesky facts point to the validity of one story over another. Sometimes things really are black and white.

Now, to those reasons why I kept the member's name private:

1) He made good. At the end of the day (literally) he paid for the damages caused by his failure to ensure my case/guitar were packed for shipping. Sure, it took several days of haranguing, and bringing bOb in to mediate, but he eventually did the right thing. And that outa count for something.

2) People make mistakes. And, fact is, we never know what's going on in another person's life. Sometimes outside factors can lead to a lapse in judgement. Hell, for all I know, my seller's wife could have left him for the Jamaican pool boy that week, or he could have lost his job shoeing Tennessee walking horses; maybe he hasn't been paying attention to politics--AT ALL-- and just found out who got elected president last year Shocked

! I think it's a good idea to give people the benefit of the doubt if ya can.

3) Why be a jerk? I've learned from experience that it's almost always better to let nasty stuff (and people) like this go. When I was a younger man (and by younger I mean 49), I would have called this guy out, and raised a huge stink. When it was all over (and I'd sobered up), I would have been filled with remorse. Even if I was in the right, I would quickly realize it wasn't even close to worth it. Besides, I read on the internet that holding anger in for long periods of time will make your hands shrink.

I'm about ready to close the page on this particular debacle, but I am extremely grateful to all who commented, made suggestions, and shared stories. As I told bOb, for this one bummer, I've had a thousand positive, warm, deeply satisfying interactions here on his Forum--buying and selling included.

You folks are the cat's pajamas.

Right. Now, I'm off to the "Steel w/out Pedals" section--where I belong!
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Remington Steelmaster S8 w/ custom Steeltronics pickup. Vox MV-50 amplifier + an 1940's Oahu cab w/ 8" American Vintage speaker. J. Mascis Fender Squire Jazzmaster, Hofner Club bass, Ibanez AVN4-VMS Artwood Vintage Series Concert Size Acoustic Guitar. 1920s/30s Supertone Hawaiian-themed parlor guitar. Silvertone parlor guitar.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

IMO No seller except a personal friend is going to take 50% and ship a guitar to someone they don't know. IMO it's such an absurd "condition" if a buyer asked me to do that I might not even bother to respond.

If you understand Paypal (as others have mentioned, only use the "purchase" option except in very specific circumstances) and similar payment systems you have recourse.

When shipping, what I do - and what I advise sellers to do when I'm buying heavy and/or valuable items - is pack so the item will most likely be undamaged in a fall from 8' to concrete. That's the maximum open-area height of ramps in UPS warehouses. Others are the same or lower.

And unless you are paying the surcharge for "hand-carry" you're wasting your time writing or slapping stickers on that say "this side up", "fragile", handle with care" etc. 90% of the sorting, handling, picking and movement is automated and nobody but the delivery driver *might* read that stuff - and they don't have time to bother in most cases.
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No chops, but great tone
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1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Dave Meis · From: Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA

I've bought a few things where the seller has asked for 'friends and family ', and I add the 3% and use the regular channel. They get the full amount, and I get the protection.

Mark Helm · From: Tennessee, USA

More excellent advice. Especially concerning packing (the 8' rule a great idea!).

A good introduction to packing guitars that have a hardshell case can be found here:

https://reverb.com/news/how-to-ship-a-guitar

The Reverb advice is sound. Had my seller used this method, I wouldn't be sharing this advice. I do advise against purchasing Reverb's boxes unless you're shipping a few bass guitars, or a couple 12 year-olds--they're much longer than necessary for shipping most Spanish guitars, banjos, and lap steels, and that really takes a bit out of your cost.

The only thing I do differently is I avoid using newspaper inside the box to protect and cushion instruments for that 8' plummet. As messy as they are, I've found packing peanuts are extremely effective (and they don't cost much). If you're shipping a guitar that doesn't have a HS case, then make sure you have a padded gigbag, and use bubblewrap and/or packing peanuts for sure.
Anyone else have advice on shipping and packing>
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Remington Steelmaster S8 w/ custom Steeltronics pickup. Vox MV-50 amplifier + an 1940's Oahu cab w/ 8" American Vintage speaker. J. Mascis Fender Squire Jazzmaster, Hofner Club bass, Ibanez AVN4-VMS Artwood Vintage Series Concert Size Acoustic Guitar. 1920s/30s Supertone Hawaiian-themed parlor guitar. Silvertone parlor guitar.

Larry Carlson · From: My Computer

I buy a lot of lap steels, mostly from Reverb, stores that list on Craigslist etc.

First, the worst packing jobs I have received have been from private parties.
I got hand made boxes barely held together by tape, no packing material inside with an address you could barely read.
Because of that I will no longer buy from a private party. It's like they think, "OK, it's not mine now....who cares."
To some they are just old guitars. To me they are history and fun and they deserve a bit of attention.

The best packing job I received was for a 1944 Electromuse from a store in Ballard in Seattle.
It was in a good sturdy well wrapped and taped box and inside that the guitar was wrapped
in what must have been 20 feet of bubble wrap and once again well taped.

If I ship an instrument I wrap it in bubble wrap. A lot of it.
If it has a case I wrap the case in bubble wrap.
Then I put it in a box and wrap that box in bubble wrap and put that in a box and tape the snot out of it.
It doesn't cost that must or take that much time but I have never had a problem.
I can't imagine shipping a pedal steel guitar.
That must be a nightmare sometimes.
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Sometimes it doesn't.
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Gary Thorsen · From: Oregon, USA

First off, UPS is not an option in my book. The ONLY way I will EVER ship or receive a guitar is through Fed Ex - packed by Fed Ex. This with the condition that the buyer understands that bracing (two short pieces of 2x4) must be cut to fit on either side of the pedal bar compartment to prevent the guitar from breaking through and slopping around inside the case damaging the guitar while being handled roughly. These guitars are heavy!! The weight causes problems when being tossed. Allow me to elaborate. If Fed Ex packs the instrument they will stand behind it's condition upon arrival. Their rates are lower and their customer service is superior IMO. When I ship a guitar I pack it in bubble wrap - as much as I can stuff inside the case. I suggest before you buy a guitar you communicate with the buyer and explain that the strings must be slackened, the guitar must be packed properly inside the case and when shipping the case must be professionally packed by Fed Ex. Any other choice is asking for problems in my opinion. As for the $$ issues I've not had a problem with Forum members so far. Search UPS for my thread on why I will NOT ship with them. Happy Steelng, Gary

Mark Helm · From: Tennessee, USA

Gary (and Everybody):

I've never used FedEx, but I will look into them. Anyone else find that they are less expensive than UPS Ground? Please share!

One of the great things about UPS Ground is that there's no extra fee for boxes weighing 37 lbs and under. This means that, if you're shipping a guitar in a box whose dimensions are, say, 38x21x7", it doesn't cost any more to ship a 37lb. guitar box than it does an 18lb. one. And, like FedEx, UPS stands by everything they pack for shipping. Be careful, though--the up-charge can cause sticker shock. That's why I always pack instruments myself for shipping. Sure, the cost of bubblewrap and packing peanuts can add up, so I always keep the packaging materials from the instruments I buy and recycle; I also have every friend and neighbor in creation saving theirs for me, and it sure helps. When I was younger, I used to dumpster dive for stuff, but I'm a little past that now. Instead, I've developed relationships with a couple local music stores, and they call me when they have extra guitar boxes and bubble wrap that was otherwise destined for the dumpster.

Another way to save is by signing up for a UPS account. And there are other perks, too like scheduled pick-ups. In fact, I was thrilled for my UPS account this weekend because I had a rather large 36 lb. box containing a double neck console lap steel in its case. For less than $5.00, the UPS driver arrived at my 2nd floor apartment (no elevator), and picked up the box; moments later, it magically appeared on my tracking screen as "In transit." Beautiful.

So--While I thought I'd sussed the least expensive ways to ship instruments under 37lbs., I could be wrong (just ask my ex-wife!). I'd be grateful if you'll share what you've learned.

NOTE: For UPS Ground, the first $100 of insurance is free; after that, it's an extra $2.50 for every extra $100's worth if insurance. And, if there's damage, they will ALWAYS honor the insurance if they did the packing. If you did the packing, then you're going to need ample evidence that you did that appropriately. I'd suggest taking lots of pictures. I will say that, in all the years I've packed instruments for shipping, I've NEVER had to make an insurance claim. Even so, I still pony up the extra dosh for insurance cause, well, ya never know.

2nd NOTE: Gary shared that he was extremely happy with FedEx customer service. If he's talking about the in-store, then getting an account eliminates having to deal with stores entirely, apart from a simple drop off. As far as UPS over the phone CS, well, I've only had to do that once, briefly, to get answers about to shipping to Canada. It took all of 5 minutes and the CS agent was downright charming; we're having dinner next weekend. There was also a "chat" option, which is great for when you're cranky and don't feel like actually chatting.

**PLEASE SHARE YOUR SHIPPING SUCCESSES (AND HOW THEY HAPPENED)**
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Remington Steelmaster S8 w/ custom Steeltronics pickup. Vox MV-50 amplifier + an 1940's Oahu cab w/ 8" American Vintage speaker. J. Mascis Fender Squire Jazzmaster, Hofner Club bass, Ibanez AVN4-VMS Artwood Vintage Series Concert Size Acoustic Guitar. 1920s/30s Supertone Hawaiian-themed parlor guitar. Silvertone parlor guitar.

Gary Thorsen · From: Oregon, USA

Sounds too good to be true...so I'll take that with a grain of salt. (Mark) After posting pictures on the Forum of the damage done to my JCH by UPS I heard from a plethora of other extremely unhappy customers. My condolences to those other poor people who have also had instruments brutalized (or lost) by UPS.

Let me caution you my fellow Forumites, my guitar landed so hard the necks were knocked loose - mounting screws pulled half-way through the body. UPS account? NO thank you!!

My days of having my guitars tossed, smashed and cases punctured by UPS are over. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Whoa!

Mark Helm · From: Tennessee, USA

Fair enuf, Gary! Just relating what has happened with me over the past 5 years or so. I hope that more Forum members will weigh in with their experiences.

This thread started all because I has a bad experience. I'm heartened that more good is coming of it in information sharing concerning buying, packing, and shipping our instruments.

Keep it coming! I'm eager to hear if anyone thinks FedEx can beat UPS Ground when it comes to prices. I will say that I do get pretty hammered when I'm shipping clear cross the country as far as cost goes. There must be a zone map I need to locate.
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Remington Steelmaster S8 w/ custom Steeltronics pickup. Vox MV-50 amplifier + an 1940's Oahu cab w/ 8" American Vintage speaker. J. Mascis Fender Squire Jazzmaster, Hofner Club bass, Ibanez AVN4-VMS Artwood Vintage Series Concert Size Acoustic Guitar. 1920s/30s Supertone Hawaiian-themed parlor guitar. Silvertone parlor guitar.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I dread having to ship any musical instrument. My heart is in my mouth until its safe arrival has been acknowledged to the recipient's satisfaction.

Steel guitars are worse! I now find it almost too physically-demanding to pack one properly - heaving 70 lbs dead-weight this way and that, then having to lift it. I'm a staunch believer in leaving the case-handle exposed; it makes things a bit easier for me and drivers to whom I have spoken have confirmed that they would prefer it.

In my opinion the most important thing we can do is brace the pedal bar compartment with blocks of wood! I once had a second-hand steel shipped to me by a major manufacturer and they hadn't done this! Really! The guitar was destroyed and had to be rebuilt. They took care of it all but that should never have happened.

And as for UPS vs. Fedex? Same difference. Lane Gray, our Forum friend, drives for one of those companies and he should know.

I use Fedex for no other reason than that their trade-counter here in Naples is staffed by the friendliest and most helpful staff imaginable. Once it leaves their place, though, all bets are off, I'm sure.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Don't brag on FedEx too much, I had to take them to court to receive compensation for a guitar they damaged.
An awful company as far as I'm concerned. Whoa!

Erv

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I thought my last sentence was perfectly clear. I didn't think I was 'bragging' on them.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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